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08-31-2012, 11:29 AM
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#1
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Frankel to Champion Stakes
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08-31-2012, 12:36 PM
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 454
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No Arc or BC? Very weak.
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08-31-2012, 01:06 PM
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Costa Rica
Posts: 1,220
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What do you mean by weak? If you look at the current top dozen or so contenders in each race according to the UK betting sites, the Champion Stakes looks at least as strong. These are the leading contenders with their best Racing Post Ratings:
Top Arc Contenders:
Nathaniel 129
Orfevre 129
Camelot 128
Danedream 128
Sea Moon 127
St Nicholas Abbey 127
Snow Fairy 125
Meandre 122
Beauty Parlour 119
Imperial Monarch 118
Last Train 118
Masterstroke 112
Avg = 123.3
Top Champion Stakes contenders:
Frankel 142
Cirrus Des Aigles 130
Excelebration 129
Nathaniel 129
Camelot 128
St Nicholas Abbey 127
Farhh 126
Reliable Man 124
Pastorius 122
Astrology 118
Imperial Monarch 118
Princess Highway 118
The Fugue 118
Avg = 125.3 (without Frankel, 123.9)
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08-31-2012, 01:17 PM
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: North Riverside, Il.
Posts: 16,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Steve R
What do you mean by weak? If you look at the current top dozen or so contenders in each race according to the UK betting sites, the Champion Stakes looks at least as strong. These are the leading contenders with their best Racing Post Ratings:
Top Arc Contenders:
Nathaniel 129
Orfevre 129
Camelot 128
Danedream 128
Sea Moon 127
St Nicholas Abbey 127
Snow Fairy 125
Meandre 122
Beauty Parlour 119
Imperial Monarch 118
Last Train 118
Masterstroke 112
Avg = 123.3
Top Champion Stakes contenders:
Frankel 142
Cirrus Des Aigles 130
Excelebration 129
Nathaniel 129
Camelot 128
St Nicholas Abbey 127
Farhh 126
Reliable Man 124
Pastorius 122
Astrology 118
Imperial Monarch 118
Princess Highway 118
The Fugue 118
Avg = 125.3 (without Frankel, 123.9)
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Maybe weak in the sense of not taking Frankel to the more prestigious Arc; not taking him out of the country to face a new challenge. And staying at the mile and a quarter distance rather than accepting the challenge to race against the best a a mile and a half.
__________________
"When you come at the King, You'd best not miss." Omar Little
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08-31-2012, 01:24 PM
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: North Riverside, Il.
Posts: 16,107
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The prevailing policy nowadays is to maximize the horse's record, rather than to determine which is the best horse. Owners and trainers are afraid to let a horse fail. As a result we never really know how good a horse can be.
Which brings up an interesting question. Are trainers training more cautiously now because horses have become less sturdy; or do horses seem less sturdy because trainers are not preparing them properly?
__________________
"When you come at the King, You'd best not miss." Omar Little
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08-31-2012, 03:17 PM
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#6
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mostpost
The prevailing policy nowadays is to maximize the horse's record, rather than to determine which is the best horse. Owners and trainers are afraid to let a horse fail. As a result we never really know how good a horse can be.
Which brings up an interesting question. Are trainers training more cautiously now because horses have become less sturdy; or do horses seem less sturdy because trainers are not preparing them properly?
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Your first paragraph is what I meant by weak. What is with the sudden fascination of winning streaks?
As for the second paragraph, I personally think it is a mix, but more on the side of the trainer. Horses can't withstand the rigors of racing because they don't race enough in my opinion.
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08-31-2012, 04:24 PM
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ringkoebing
Posts: 4,342
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It doesn't have much of a wow factor, but it's not straightforward either, it may turn out to be the hardest race of his career.
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08-31-2012, 05:09 PM
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#8
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gm10
It doesn't have much of a wow factor, but it's not straightforward either, it may turn out to be the hardest race of his career.
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Didn't you say that about the last one?
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08-31-2012, 05:16 PM
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ringkoebing
Posts: 4,342
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by cj
Didn't you say that about the last one?
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I may have expressed some doubts about his ability to taking to 10F as well as over a mile, yes.
In this case, I mean the possible competition. There are some very classy horses in there.
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08-31-2012, 05:48 PM
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,550
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I would have liked to see Danedream go against Frankel. I am not aware of the eligibility conditions, but is it a possibility for Danedream to get shipped to Ascot or any of the BC classic hopefuls shipped to Ascot to take on Frankel?
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09-01-2012, 05:59 AM
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Merrimack Valley
Posts: 214
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it wasn't good enough , for some , that frankel hadn't won a top 10 furlong . what now , pick holes in him because he hasn't won over 12 ? and what exactly does he need to do for some to accept his greatness ? ( yes , greatness .)
fact : this calibre of horse is a true rarity - almost certainly the best english-trained since the early 70s ; possibly even longer . enjoy him while his here , i say.
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09-02-2012, 09:59 AM
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#12
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Humph
it wasn't good enough , for some , that frankel hadn't won a top 10 furlong . what now , pick holes in him because he hasn't won over 12 ? and what exactly does he need to do for some to accept his greatness ? ( yes , greatness .)
fact : this calibre of horse is a true rarity - almost certainly the best english-trained since the early 70s ; possibly even longer . enjoy him while his here , i say.
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I don't care if he runs at 10 or 12 f in the next race, so that to me isn't the issue. It's that he should be running in the biggest race in Europe, equivalent to our BCC, instead of skipping it for another race. It's hard to justify skipping the race for the $6 million or so purse and instead going into the one that's a $1.3 million purse. Which race do you reckon will have the bigger field and better competition? Particularly after going an entire career racing at home. We question horses who only win in New York and don't carry their game elsewhere which is what this horse has essentially done.
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09-02-2012, 12:45 PM
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#13
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fager Fan
I don't care if he runs at 10 or 12 f in the next race, so that to me isn't the issue. It's that he should be running in the biggest race in Europe, equivalent to our BCC, instead of skipping it for another race. It's hard to justify skipping the race for the $6 million or so purse and instead going into the one that's a $1.3 million purse. Which race do you reckon will have the bigger field and better competition? Particularly after going an entire career racing at home. We question horses who only win in New York and don't carry their game elsewhere which is what this horse has essentially done.
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This sums it up very nicely.
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09-02-2012, 12:58 PM
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#14
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intus habes, quem poscis
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 9,776
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fager Fan
I don't care if he runs at 10 or 12 f in the next race, so that to me isn't the issue. It's that he should be running in the biggest race in Europe, equivalent to our BCC, instead of skipping it for another race. It's hard to justify skipping the race for the $6 million or so purse and instead going into the one that's a $1.3 million purse. Which race do you reckon will have the bigger field and better competition? Particularly after going an entire career racing at home. We question horses who only win in New York and don't carry their game elsewhere which is what this horse has essentially done.
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Coulple things. The race he is running in is the English version of our BCC. Champions Day is a new thing, but it certainly will draw its share of very good horses. Second, let's be honest with this one. The race he doesn't run in will have the bigger field and better competition. He is getting dodged as well. Probably more so with the race he entered, but had he gone there other way, there would have been a few defections as well. If the owner does not believe he is a middle distance horse, then he is running in the right race. The dumbest thing he could have done though was bring him over here to race on a grass bullring, so I'd much rather see him at Ascot than Santa Anita.
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09-02-2012, 01:08 PM
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#15
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,646
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What POSSIBLE reason would they have to run him on grass over here? Whether at a "bullring" like SA or a bigger course like Belmont or even Woodbine (hypothetically of course as the BC is not at either of those two venues this year)? There would be no reason. There is no competition...no enhancing of the resume...it would be a wasted trip, and a foregone conclusion that he would thrash whatever field we could assemble over here.
There would be absolutely no reason to run him here unless they were going to run him on dirt in the BCC. If there was any desire for a such a thing, they probably couldn't pick a better year to do so, given the competition, or lack thereof.
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