Religion III

[boxcar]

Mr. Light-n-loafers, I have another question for you. Or will you duck this one, too, like the one I asked recently about where Jesus is physically if not in heaven?

But since you pride yourself as being this expert on love (appaently), I would like to hear your wisdom to this question: What is your definition of love?

Can hardly wait to hear back from you on this.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Sure love can exist on its own. Even the ungodly can love! They can love darkness and injustice and falsehoods and all manner of wickedness and, of course, love themselves above all else! Even your "best friend" essentially stated this fact.

Matt 7:11a
11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children...
NIV

But what makes God's love incomparable to all others is his holiness! His holiness compels him to love others as no mere sinful mortal can -- and to also hate all that is profane!

You are as confused as possible.

Holiness without love is ego. This is your facade in a nutshell. You preach without love, judge and chastise and put yourself above others saying they are going to Hell and you to Heaven because you think you are "holier than thou". No "Holy" person with love would dare speak like that knowing they are offending the one they claim to worship. What folly. You think God is not seeing what you write?

Furthermore, there is absolutely no meaning and no pleasure in a "holy" person without love. A Holy man without love only wants credit and accolades for his supposedly "Holy deeds", like you.

You seriously underestimate the power of love and do not recognize that love has many more facets and dimensions to it and IS God.

Holiness has no power without love.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

What is your definition of love?

Love is ineffable. It can only be experienced.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Love is ineffable. It can only be experienced.

Ahh...so love is whatever any person wants it to be, since everyone's experiences differ.

Now, I have a follow up question: Do you think God "experiences" love differently than we mere mortals, or just as we do?

[dnlgfnk]

[quote=boxcar;2815662]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

I'm not so sure about that. The bible clearly emphasizes God's holiness over love. When Jesus and the prophets and the apostles said that God's NAME is holy, they were making a profound statement about God's character and essence. Names were extremely important in the ANE world. You should do a study someday of this truth. How many times did God give names to people!? And why would he do that if it weren't so important?

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. No, we cannot "separate" per se one attribute from another except, perhaps, as a mental exercise. However, if scripture itself places emphasis on certain truths, then it's incumbent upon us to acknowledge that and act accordingly. For example, have you considered why at the giving of the Law at Mt. Sinai, God strictly forbade anyone from even touch the base of the mountain on which he was to meet with Moses? The people and animals, etc. had to stay a certain distance away. Do you know why he did that? Or do you know why no mere mortal can see God and live? Or do you know why in the Tabernacle and then later in the subsequent Temples that were built, there was a room called the Holy of Holies? And do you know why no one could enter that room except one person at one specific time every year?

All these truths are lost to the Lights of this world, for it has not pleased God to reveal them to such people, but to you who profess to know God, I would encourage you to pick up your bible and search out these precious treasures prayerfully.

Be assured of this: I rejoice in God's precious love daily because it is a holy love. It's not the profane love of the world. Ultimately, therefore, I rejoice in who God is -- in totality.

I could cite the number of mentions of the words "holiness" and "love" as possessed by God, respective to the Hebrew scriptures and the New Testament. I could mention the Tablets, the Holiness Code of Leviticus, the zeal of Isaiah and especially Ezekiel for YHWH's holiness, in preparation for a new covenant written on hearts rather than stone, and for the Christian, the pedagogical nature of the Hebrew scriptures as compared to the new Law of Love (Jn 13:34) from the New Moses (Mt 5).

But it's enough to simply observe that it is metaphysically incoherent to differentiate between God's perfect love and perfect holiness, which are identical to him. Maybe this guy helps?...
https://reformedforum.org/divine-sim...od-without-it/

[boxcar]

[quote=dnlgfnk;2815772]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I could cite the number of mentions of the words "holiness" and "love" as possessed by God, respective to the Hebrew scriptures and the New Testament. I could mention the Tablets, the Holiness Code of Leviticus, the zeal of Isaiah and especially Ezekiel for YHWH's holiness, in preparation for a new covenant written on hearts rather than stone, and for the Christian, the pedagogical nature of the Hebrew scriptures as compared to the new Law of Love (Jn 13:34) from the New Moses (Mt 5).

But it's enough to simply observe that it is metaphysically incoherent to differentiate between God's perfect love and perfect holiness, which are identical to him. Maybe this guy helps?...
https://reformedforum.org/divine-sim...od-without-it/

Okay...let's approach this topic from a different angle. You might have noticed that yesterday Light suddenly has no definition for the term "love". He said love IS "ineffable". Love is beyond words. And this is actually quite a change for him since for years he's been telling us that God's love IS "unconditional'. But now all of a sudden there are no words to describe love. But I digress.

We both know (I'm assuming you do) that there are two kinds of love in this world: There is godly love and worldly love. Or stated another way, there is divine holy love and worldly profane love. The bible certainly teaches us about both kinds, does it not? Let's begin with the latter.

Paul teaches that people are lovers of themselves and lovers of money (2Tim 3:2), implicitly lovers of evil (2Tim 3:3), lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God (2Tim 3:4). And we know from scripture that the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil (1Tim 6:10). Men love the praise of other men (Jn 12:43). Sinners have no love for the truth, therefore they love lies and falsehoods (2Thes 2:10; Ps 52:3)). Men love violence (Ps 11:5). Men love every harmful word (Ps 52:4). Men who hate godly wisdom love death (Prov 8:36).

John told us that men don't come to the Light (Christ) because they love the darkness since their deeds are evil (Jn 3:19).

Also, as stated yesterday, Jesus taught that even evil men can give good gifts to their children, presumably out of their corrupt love for them (Mat 7:11).

So, what we see is that the world is filled with love! But it's corrupt, tainted, unclean, ungodly, profane! What else could we expect from unregenerate sinners? Can we logically expect bad trees to produce godly love!?

I take it that with you I don't have to contrast God's holy love with the world's profane variety, do I?

Are you still going you to insist that God's holiness doesn't govern his love; whereas the world wants nothing to do with God's holiness which is why its love is profane on its best day?

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

He [Light] said love IS "ineffable". Love is beyond words. And this is actually quite a change for him since for years he's been telling us that God's love IS "unconditional'. But now all of a sudden there are no words to describe love.

Only someone who doesn't know what Love is like you would think that "love being ineffable" would mean it is NOT unconditional. If it was not unconditional it would not be ineffable. You are seriously out of touch with what love is.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Only someone who doesn't know what Love is like you would think that "love being ineffable" would mean it is NOT unconditional. If it was not unconditional it would not be ineffable. You are seriously out of touch with what love is.

You're seriously out of touch with the definition of "ineffable". Do you want to walk "ineffable" back and come up with another stupid term? Here you are again, talking out of both sides of your mouth all at once and simultaneously. In one breath you define love for us being "unconditional" but now more recently you say it can't be defined? Duplicitous much?

And how is the average guy on the street supposed to know what love is like when you can't define it? Is he supposed to go to a proctologist to have his anus probed to see if the doctor can find the word "unconditional" up there?

No wonder you hate Jesus' Gospel! He taught a real message with real words and made it simple for people to understand. But how can you compete with that when you can't even define something as fundamentally important as love? You're just like that airhead Jackson who just got confirmed to the SC, as she couldn't define "woman". (You should have put a bug in her ear and told her that "woman"is ineffable and cannot be expressed in words.)

Also, the world would disagree with your definition of love. The way the world loves is not unconditionally. Not even close. There's no way the world could relate to your message. Just sayin'...

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

. In one breath you define love for us being "unconditional" but now more recently you say it can't be defined? Duplicitous much?

There is no contradiction. An unconditional act of love can be written as "unconditional" but its meaning is ineffable.

Originally Posted by boxcar

And how is the average guy on the street supposed to know what love is like when you can't define it?

The average guy on the street knows what I am talking about. You don't. That's your problem.

Originally Posted by boxcar

No wonder you hate Jesus' Gospel!

Didn't they teach you not to lie in Sunday school?

Originally Posted by boxcar

Also, the world would disagree with your definition of love. The way the world loves is not unconditionally. Not even close. There's no way the world could relate to your message. Just sayin'...

Again your reading comprehension skills are very poor.

I told you previously this is not the same love one has for their spouse. This love I am referring to with God, is on a higher level of consciousness and that is ALWAYS unconditional love.

You only know conditional love and that is understandable considering how low a consciousness you exhibit.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

There is no contradiction. An unconditional act of love can be written as "unconditional" but its meaning is ineffable.

You're on a roll today. Now your engaging circular reasoning. Your premise and conclusion are identical. You start with conditional love and end with it. Smooth move Ex-Lax.

Also, there is no way you can know God's love is unconditional unless he told you that. Did he? Or maybe it was the blue bird of La La Land?

The average guy on the street knows what I am talking about. You don't. That's your problem.

No he doesn't because the average guy doesn't love unconditonally. Also, you just told the "average guy on the street" that love can't be defined.

Didn't they teach you not to lie in Sunday school?

Of course you hate his Gospel. You want no part of it. Have you also forgotten how you openly despised divine revelation?

citing "irrelevant" scripture again that was written by "fearful, ignorant, superstitious and absolutely stupid men, and not God"

Where did Jesus get his Gospel if not from his Father?

Jesus and you are never on the same page, as we'll see, yet again, in a moment. You're the liar here, not me.

Again your reading comprehension skills are very poor.

I told you previously this is not the same love one has for their spouse. This love I am referring to with God, is on a higher level of consciousness and that is ALWAYS unconditional love.

You only know conditional love and that is understandable considering how low a consciousness you exhibit.

So the world only loves spouses? The world loves many, many things. Among them are lies and falsehoods, as you do, as well.

And, of course, God's love is only conditional; for he cannot love that which is contrary to his nature. A holy God cannot love anything or anyone that is profane. Even your "best friend" taught his disciples that the Father's love for him was conditioned upon his obedience; for Jesus told them that there was a reason why God loves him.

John 10:17-18
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
NIV

It's a no-brainer for me who to believe. Jesus' statement here is entirely consistent with a large body of scripture that talks about the nature of God's love.

Also, since the world is filled with all manner of love -- for people, things, desires, etc. then in your universe what's the big deal about the nature of God's love? He's never going to judge them even if his love differs from his.

[boxcar]

Top of the Morning to Ya, Light-headed. I know how much you think you love your "best friend", so I thought I'd share with you one of his teachings so that you can meditate on it:

John 14:21
21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
NIV

Since the world hates the Son of God (as your "best friend" predicted, of course), one is led to wonder about the fate of all those who hate God's Beloved and Only Begotten Son.

Have a great day...

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Also, there is no way you can know God's love is unconditional unless he told you that. Did he?

At least I have some evidence and that is from NDE's. You have nothing.

Originally Posted by boxcar

No he doesn't because the average guy doesn't love unconditonally.

But the average guy knows that God loves you unconditionally. You don't.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Where did Jesus get his Gospel if not from his Father?

Jesus did not write the Gospels. The earliest written (Mark) was at least 30 years after Jesus died.

Originally Posted by boxcar

So the world only loves spouses?

Are you serious? Like you can't read English at all? Where do I say that?

I said FYI that the love I am talking about is NOT the love one has for their spouse. I didn't say the world has only love for their spouses.

Go to a doctor for a mental health checkup...soon.

Originally Posted by boxcar

And, of course, God's love is only conditional; for he cannot love that which is contrary to his nature.

That is an oxymoron. You cannot have an being of infinite (unconditional) love with conditional (finite) love for his children. It's contrary to his nature as you say.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Since the world hates the Son of God (as your "best friend" predicted, of course), one is led to wonder about the fate of all those who hate God's Beloved and Only Begotten Son.

I don't know anyone who hates Jesus, nor have I seen anything like that in the media. The ones that don't follow Jesus simply have their own religion. But they don't hate Jesus. What is there to hate?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

I don't know anyone who hates Jesus, nor have I seen anything like that in the media. The ones that don't follow Jesus simply have their own religion. But they don't hate Jesus. What is there to hate?

You either love the one and only true God or you hate Him and invent religions of your own. What you don't want to understand is that Jesus is THE ONLY WAY to the Father. The world is filled with their religious ways to their so-called gods, which is why there are so many religions. But the world's ways are not your "best friend's" way. The choice is easy: It's either His Way to the Father or the highway to hell!

Have you never read:

1 John 2:23
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.?
NIV


And are you suggesting that the Jews who delivered Jesus up to the Romans to crucify him did that out of their love for him!? Have you gone stark raving mad!?

Jesus said the world would hate him just like the Jews did!

John 7:7
7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil.
NIV

See how pitch black the darkness is in you!? This is why you cannot believe your "best friend" in anything he says.

And again, He said:

John 15:25
25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.'
NIV

Jesus was alluding to messianic prophecies in Psalms 35, 69 and 109.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

At least I have some evidence and that is from NDE's. You have nothing.

As I said earlier, you hate Jesus' Gospel and now you just proved it. I have the scriptures, which you say are nothing. Yet, where else is the Gospel message if not in the Word of God?

But the average guy knows that God loves you unconditionally. You don't.

There is no way you can prove that. The only thing the "average guy" loves unconditionally is his pursuit of evil. He attaches no conditions to the pursuit of his carnal pleasures -- the money that he loves, the violence he loves, the lies he loves, the promiscuous or perverted sex he loves, etc., etc.

Jesus did not write the Gospels. The earliest written (Mark) was at least 30 years after Jesus died.

Which means what, precisely: That we cannot know what Jesus actually taught? Is that what you're trying to insinuate? Does that apply to Lk 17:21, too? If you can't trust this passage:

John 8:26
26 "I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."
NIV

Then how can you logically trust Lk 17:21? The above Passage says that Jesus only taught what he heard from his Father; for Jesus came into this world as a servant to do his Father's bidding. Therefore, Jesus' Gospel is his Father's!

Are you serious? Like you can't read English at all? Where do I say that?

I said FYI that the love I am talking about is NOT the love one has for their spouse. I didn't say the world has only love for their spouses.

And I'm saying FYI that the world loves a lot more than just its spouses.

Go to a doctor for a mental health checkup...soon.

I would tell you the same, except I believe you are broken beyond repair. There is only one person who can fix you. You had better cry out to Him humbly before it's too late.

That is an oxymoron. You cannot have an being of infinite (unconditional) love with conditional (finite) love for his children. It's contrary to his nature as you say.

The oxymoron is in the above paragraph. Whether a being is finite or infinite has nothing to do with the nature of his love. The nature of one's love has only to do with the nature of the one doing the loving. And there is no human or divine attribute known as "conditional" or "unconditional", respectively! Google God's attributes; you will be hard-pressed to come up with "unconditional" as one of them.

Furthermore, you're implying that finite beings can only love conditionally, in which case I ask again: How would the world know, according to you, that the nature of God's love is unconditional since we finite mortals can apparently only experience conditional love? You say you have your evidence from NDE's. But from where does the world get its evidence, since only a tiny percentage of the world gives any attention to NDE nonsense? Again, do they go to their nearest proctologist for an anal probe to see if he can find the nature of God's love up there somewhere? Conversely, my evidence comes from a large body of scriptural evidence in both Testaments, including the text I quoted in John 10, which you have ignored. Here's the text again:

John 10:17-18
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
NIV

As I stated very recently, Jesus' words above comport very nicely with a large body of scripture. He's very consistent. You...not so much. In fact...not at all!

All this is my objective evidence. But you have nothing but wishful thinking.