Religion III

[Actor]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Boxcar is not your neighbor.

Doesn't the parable of the good Samaritan say otherwise?

Originally Posted by TJDave

I would not expect him to honor this commandment.

Nor would I.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Are you serious? There's no way I would want PA to ban the dog and pony show you and Actor put on for our amusement.

You figured that out, huh?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

You have very poor reading skills.

There is a great difference between what you claim I said (above) and what I actually said which is that YOU have a morbid view of Christianity.See my last post Einstein.

This is a fundamental difference of how we view Christianity. You think most are going to Hell and I say most are going to Heaven. You site your twisted scripture interpretations and I site Gods divine love.

You see scripture as policing God's love and I see scripture subservient to God's love. In your religious world of scripture, Hell and damnation rule. In my world of experiencing God and Jesus's love, Love forgiveness and higher consciousness rule.

And you think you are going to Heaven? Why would you want that? You don't like that I preach that love is the way. You would probably feel more at home in Hell.

You dichotomize who God is by creating this false distinction between his attributes (of which Love is but one) and his Words (what he has revealed through his prophets, apostles and Jesus). But god cannot say anything that is contrary to his holy nature.

Most will go to hell because ALL of us come into this world in a state of spiritual death -- and most of us prefer that it remain that, which is why scripture says that men don't come to the light (Jesus) for salvation because they love the darkness since their deeds are evil! Only to those who whom Jesus chooses to give life will be raised up from their [spiritual] tombs and be delivered from death. Only to those who Jesus sovereignly chooses to reveal the Father will come to the Father through the Son.

Matt 11:27

27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
NIV

And,

John 5:21
21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
NIV

And, yes, I know I'm going to heaven. No question about it. And I give all the glory, all the credit and all the honor to my Lord AND Savior Jesus Christ. It is strictly by God's doing that he predestined me before the foundation of the world to be brought into his Kingdom. If it weren't for God's awesome, indescribable, unfathomable grace, I would this very day be as lost as you and Actor and most here on this forum. I am confident because of what the Word of God says, because the Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit, and because of my changed life which includes a personal and intimate relationship with my Redeemer. Jesus paid my sin debt in full!. He bore my sins in his body! Every single one of them! He lived the perfect life that none of us can ever live and paid the price for my sins that I should pay.

I consider myself to be this richest man on this planet because of the eternal inheritance that I will receive on the Last Day.

Meanwhile...all you have is your wishful thinking.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You dichotomize who God is by creating this false distinction between his attributes (of which Love is but one)

Because "God is Love" as John says, God and Love are interchangeable and you marginalize God by putting him on the same level as other ""attributes" as you say (above). You don't even notice you are disrespecting the one you claim is your God. And that's because your only knowledge of God is not real,but is your imagination.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Most will go to hell because ALL of us come into this world in a state of spiritual death

Proven false by Jesus himself who said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven"

So if we come into this world spiritually dead, then why is Jesus telling us to be as children who you are claiming to be spiritually dead?

Originally Posted by boxcar

And, yes, I know I'm going to heaven.

And where is Heaven? If you don't know where it is you will not get there.

For example, lets say Heaven is a gorgeous external place. Now lets say you don't feel so good. Is Heaven still a beautiful place? No because beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that eye is within.

I have already been to Heaven. I didn't need to die. It was my experience of God's divine love which is the highest experience of anything I have experienced in this life. It was real, not some imagination from a book.

Heaven is within or nowhere. You obviously don't know yourself. If you did you would know God. And you would know he lives within your heart, not in some lala land.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Because "God is Love" as John says, God and Love are interchangeable and you marginalize God by putting him on the same level as other ""attributes" as you say (above). You don't even notice you are disrespecting the one you claim is your God. And that's because your only knowledge of God is not real,but is your imagination.

No! Love is an attribute. Love is not a god, nor is love a kingdom, nor is love God! Nowhere in scripture does it say that love is God!

And I don't marginalize God by saying he possesses other attributes, without which any one of them, He could not be God. Tell me: Which attribute or attributes are dispensable? Without which of any of them God could truly be God?

Proven false by Jesus himself who said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven"

So if we come into this world spiritually dead, then why is Jesus telling us to be as children who you are claiming to be spiritually dead?

Because we have the moral responsibility to have child-like faith! But that moral responsibility does not mean we have any ability to conjure up such a faith! Even repentance is a divine gift from God! Why do you think your "best friend" said that He gives eternal life to whom he wishes!? If he did not bring the [spiritually] dead back to life, no one would be empowered have faith or repent of their sins! Dead people can do nothing!

And where is Heaven? If you don't know where it is you will not get there.

For example, lets say Heaven is a gorgeous external place. Now lets say you don't feel so good. Is Heaven still a beautiful place? No because beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that eye is within.

I have already been to Heaven. I didn't need to die. It was my experience of God's divine love which is the highest experience of anything I have experienced in this life. It was real, not some imagination from a book.

Heaven is within or nowhere. You obviously don't know yourself. If you did you would know God. And you would know he lives within your heart, not in some lala land.

[/quote]

So Jesus had it wrong? You know more about Heaven than the Creator of Heaven and Earth!? Jesus certainly taught that Heaven was a "place" -- that heaven was a place to be entered : Mat 5:19; 6:20, 7:21; 10:32; 18:10, 19; 19:21 , etc, etc. Jesus never taught that heaven is within anyone! You pervert Lk 17:21 to try to teach this. But even if you were right in this, I would pull a Light on you and say that that's an inconsistency in the bible, since what you claim that text is teaching is found nowhere else in scripture -- and yet you also make the claim that Lk 17: 21 is the most important verse in all the bible, right? If it's so important, why isn't it taught elsewhere in scripture?

Matt 23:9
9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
NIV

And,

Matt 24:35
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
NIV

Since the earth is a "place", then heaven must be also.

Mark 10:21
21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven . Then come, follow me."
NIV

And,

Luke 6:23
23 "Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven...
NIV

And,

Luke 15:-7
7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
NIV

And finally:

John 3:13
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.
NIV

Was your "best friend" delusional? He claimed that he was in heaven and came down from heaven! As usual, you know not of what you speak. There is no one more willfully ignorant of the bible than you!

[boxcar]

Hey, Light-n-loafers, I have a question for you since you don't believe Heaven is a place. It's another question about your "best friend". Here it is:

Where is Jesus, if he's not in heaven seated at the right hand of his Father? Or to be even more specific: Where is the resurrected Jesus -- the guy who physically rose from his tomb on the third day? Since Jesus is still God-incarnate -- still fully God, fully human, having a physical body, then tell us where he is if he's not in heaven with his Father? Is he still here on earth, hiding out somewhere? Or did Jesus ship out to some other universe? Or is Jesus Christ physically in your heart? Where is he?

[dnlgfnk]

[QUOTE=boxcar;2815412]No! Love is an attribute. Love is not a god, nor is love a kingdom, nor is love God! Nowhere in scripture does it say that love is God!

And I don't marginalize God by saying he possesses other attributes, without which any one of them, He could not be God. Tell me: Which attribute or attributes are dispensable? Without which of any of them God could truly be God?
NIV

https://biblia.com/books/esv/1Jn4.8

Is God's love divine? Than God's love is God, as well as the other attributes are God. Else, God would have a potentiality in need of actualizing, i.e., God could be subject to change. God would have parts, his Being and Existence "here", his divine Love separate, "over there".

This in no way requires Light's universalism, or that God doesn't exist objectively, externally as well as immanently in the justified. God's love is God, God's justice is God, etc.

[boxcar]

[quote=dnlgfnk;2815454]

Originally Posted by boxcar

No! Love is an attribute. Love is not a god, nor is love a kingdom, nor is love God! Nowhere in scripture does it say that love is God!

And I don't marginalize God by saying he possesses other attributes, without which any one of them, He could not be God. Tell me: Which attribute or attributes are dispensable? Without which of any of them God could truly be God?
NIV

https://biblia.com/books/esv/1Jn4.8

Is God's love divine? Than God's love is God, as well as the other attributes are God. Else, God would have a potentiality in need of actualizing, i.e., God could be subject to change. God would have parts, his Being and Existence "here", his divine Love separate, "over there".

This in no way requires Light's universalism, or that God doesn't exist objectively, externally as well as immanently in the justified. God's love is God, God's justice is God, etc.

"God's" is an adjective. Light used no adjective. He merely said, basically, that God and love are interchangeable.

But I agree with what you say about potentiality and actualizing. Whenever we make a "God IS" statement, we're making a statement about his very essence -- about his being. Light discounts all the other attributes in favor or love, which results in a very twisted, distorted view of God. He all but summarily dismissed God's holiness at one time, telling me I make too much of a big deal about it. Even though scripture says of God: Holy, holy, holy IS the Lord Almighty (Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8)). Whenever scripture repeats something twice, it's telling us to listen up carefully because what is being said is very important. But when scripture repeats something three times, it's telling us to listen up very, very carefully - pay special attention, remove the blinders, pull out the ear plugs; for what is being said is of utmost and infinite importance. As awesome and indescribable and joyous and precious God's love is, are there any scriptures that say, God is love, love, love?

It's also noteworthy, I believe, that God never speaks of himself as being love! There is no text in all scripture wherein God says, "I am love". Conversely, there are numerous passages wherein God says of himself that "I am holy". So, it seems to me that "the controlling" attribute -- the attribute that is overarching all the rest is God's holiness. God's holiness is the reason God cannot sin. It's is the reason there is no darkness in Him. It is the reason there is no injustice in him. It is the reason why God can only love that which is good, holy and righteous and hate everything else that falls short.

It is also extremely significant that even Jesus the Son of God is called holy. But he's never called "love" (Lk 1:35; Mk 1:24; Act 3:14; 4:27, 30; Heb 4:15; 7:26; 2Cor 5:21; 1Pet 1:19; 1Jn 2:20.)

And finally, isn't the Third Person of the Godhead called the HOLY Spirit!? He's not called the Love Spirit!

[Light]

Boxcar

Let me emphasize that Love is not merely an adjective or an attribute of God. It is the very core of what and who God is.

Love comes from God. He is its source. As Jesus said: "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you" When we experience God's love, we are enabled through that love to love others.

Here you see the definition, not the attribute of God:

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Also, through meditation, I have been able to experience God's love directly. What you don't understand is that God's love is on a much higher consciousness that human love. There is a profound intelligence and awareness in his love. And it is through that direct experience with God's love that you get to know him and will be floored to learn how much he loves you. You cannot imagine. It is not just a nice fuzzy and warm feeling. When you feel that love you feel like all things are indeed possible. It is the most wonderful feeling I have ever experienced in this life.

Furthermore when you experience God's love you realize it is infinite just like God and is God. It does not have boundaries and it is full of wisdom. When you love a fellow human, it lacks that extra dimension that is God's love which is off the charts.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Boxcar

Let me emphasize that Love is not merely an adjective or an attribute of God. It is the very core of what and who God is.

Love comes from God. He is its source. As Jesus said: "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you" When we experience God's love, we are enabled through that love to love others.

Here you see the definition, not the attribute of God:

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Also, through meditation, I have been able to experience God's love directly. What you don't understand is that God's love is on a much higher consciousness that human love. There is a profound intelligence and awareness in his love. And it is through that direct experience with God's love that you get to know him and will be floored to learn how much he loves you. You cannot imagine. It is not just a nice fuzzy and warm feeling. When you feel that love you feel like all things are indeed possible. It is the most wonderful feeling I have ever experienced in this life.

Furthermore when you experience God's love you realize it is infinite just like God and is God. It does not have boundaries and it is full of wisdom. When you love a fellow human, it lacks that extra dimension that is God's love which is off the charts.

Thanks for the lecture on love. Just remember: No one will see God without holiness. There is no scripture that says that no one will see God without love, although that, too, is true.

Now, answer my questions that I presented to you yesterday. I especially want to know where Jesus physically is presently, if not in heaven with his Father.

Actually the very core of what God is is defined by his holiness, as pointed out earlier today. His holiness governs all his choices and acts -- even the act of loving. God never says anywhere in scripture that "I am love". But he has said often that "I am holy" and commanded others to be holy as he is! (Is that specific command on your list of commands that God has given you personally?)

Even your "best friend" agrees with me. I refer you to the Lord's Prayer in which he begins with: Our Father in heaven, HALLOWED be your name". He didn't say "love is your name", did he? Of course, he didn't. Jesus prayed biblically -- right out of the OT (Ps 97:12; 111:9; Isa 57:15, etc. "Hallowed" means holy.

Jesus knew what he was talking about; you, on the other hand, not so much.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Thanks for the lecture on love. Just remember: No one will see God without holiness. There is no scripture that says that no one will see God without love, although that, too, is true.

Now, answer my questions that I presented to you yesterday. I especially want to know where Jesus physically is presently, if not in heaven with his Father.

Actually the very core of what God is is defined by his holiness, as pointed out earlier today. His holiness governs all his choices and acts -- even the act of loving. God never says anywhere in scripture that "I am love". But he has said often that "I am holy" and commanded others to be holy as he is! (Is that specific command on your list of commands that God has given you personally?)

Even your "best friend" agrees with me. I refer you to the Lord's Prayer in which he begins with: Our Father in heaven, HALLOWED be your name". He didn't say "love is your name", did he? Of course, he didn't. Jesus prayed biblically -- right out of the OT (Ps 97:12; 111:9; Isa 57:15, etc. "Hallowed" means holy.

Jesus knew what he was talking about; you, on the other hand, not so much.

You don't get it. Holiness comes from love. Everything comes from love. This isn't theoretical. This is the wisdom that comes from a Divine Love experience. Love is the most powerful thing in existence . It is the reason existence came into being. It is the motivator. This is another reason why divine love is not a mere attribute.

Why do you think Christianity went from a few followers in the 1st century to billions in the world today. It is because of the seed of Love Jesus spread while on Earth which he knew would gradually become recognized. Love works at its own pace. Very patiently, but in the end it always prevails.

Obviously I am not talking about the love you have for your wife but a higher love you are definitely not familiar with.

This is why I say, you are still a rookie. You think, you talk about God but you don't know God until you have that experience directly from God.

In the meantime all you have is your Bible and your scriptures, but they are not who you are.

[dnlgfnk]

[quote=boxcar;2815517]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

"God's" is an adjective. Light used no adjective. He merely said, basically, that God and love are interchangeable.

But I agree with what you say about potentiality and actualizing. Whenever we make a "God IS" statement, we're making a statement about his very essence -- about his being. Light discounts all the other attributes in favor or love, which results in a very twisted, distorted view of God. He all but summarily dismissed God's holiness at one time, telling me I make too much of a big deal about it. Even though scripture says of God: Holy, holy, holy IS the Lord Almighty (Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8)). Whenever scripture repeats something twice, it's telling us to listen up carefully because what is being said is very important. But when scripture repeats something three times, it's telling us to listen up very, very carefully - pay special attention, remove the blinders, pull out the ear plugs; for what is being said is of utmost and infinite importance. As awesome and indescribable and joyous and precious God's love is, are there any scriptures that say, God is love, love, love?

It's also noteworthy, I believe, that God never speaks of himself as being love! There is no text in all scripture wherein God says, "I am love". Conversely, there are numerous passages wherein God says of himself that "I am holy". So, it seems to me that "the controlling" attribute -- the attribute that is overarching all the rest is God's holiness. God's holiness is the reason God cannot sin. It's is the reason there is no darkness in Him. It is the reason there is no injustice in him. It is the reason why God can only love that which is good, holy and righteous and hate everything else that falls short.

It is also extremely significant that even Jesus the Son of God is called holy. But he's never called "love" (Lk 1:35; Mk 1:24; Act 3:14; 4:27, 30; Heb 4:15; 7:26; 2Cor 5:21; 1Pet 1:19; 1Jn 2:20.)

And finally, isn't the Third Person of the Godhead called the HOLY Spirit!? He's not called the Love Spirit!

God is Infinite Existence. The perfections in him are therefore infinite. It would be impossible to separate them from him, or emphasize holiness over love, lest love lack something that holiness has. The attributes could not be distinct, lest one be not a perfection in him, not God. God's holiness is God's love, is God's...in one perfect unity.

"And finally, isn't the Third Person of the Godhead called the HOLY Spirit!? He's not called the Love Spirit!"

God's perfect act of knowledge of himself is the Son, the Logos, (Jn 1:1)
(cf. Roman numeral III in...) https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexi.../rsv/mgnt/0-1/

God's perfect act of love of the Logos, (Jn 3:35) is the Holy Spirit
(cf. Ia)
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexi.../rsv/mgnt/0-1/

[Light]

There is no contest between Love and holiness because without love, holiness is empty and cannot exist. Love can exists on its own. Its not even a close contest.

Holiness is an attribute of Divine love in extreme form. Divine Love is the ruler of all attributes and is not an attribute but a ruler. It rules all hearts, minds and existence. In other words it is the very essence of God.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

There is no contest between Love and holiness because without love, holiness is empty and cannot exist. Love can exists on its own. Its not even a close contest.

Holiness is an attribute of Divine love in extreme form. Divine Love is the ruler of all attributes and is not an attribute but a ruler. It rules all hearts, minds and existence. In other words it is the very essence of God.

Sure love can exist on its own. Even the ungodly can love! They can love darkness and injustice and falsehoods and all manner of wickedness and, of course, love themselves above all else! Even your "best friend" essentially stated this fact.

Matt 7:11a
11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children...
NIV

But what makes God's love incomparable to all others is his holiness! His holiness compels him to love others as no mere sinful mortal can -- and to also hate all that is profane!

[boxcar]

[quote=dnlgfnk;2815629]

Originally Posted by boxcar

God is Infinite Existence. The perfections in him are therefore infinite. It would be impossible to separate them from him, or emphasize holiness over love, lest love lack something that holiness has. The attributes could not be distinct, lest one be not a perfection in him, not God. God's holiness is God's love, is God's...in one perfect unity.

"And finally, isn't the Third Person of the Godhead called the HOLY Spirit!? He's not called the Love Spirit!"

God's perfect act of knowledge of himself is the Son, the Logos, (Jn 1:1)
(cf. Roman numeral III in...) https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexi.../rsv/mgnt/0-1/

God's perfect act of love of the Logos, (Jn 3:35) is the Holy Spirit
(cf. Ia)
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexi.../rsv/mgnt/0-1/

I'm not so sure about that. The bible clearly emphasizes God's holiness over love. When Jesus and the prophets and the apostles said that God's NAME is holy, they were making a profound statement about God's character and essence. Names were extremely important in the ANE world. You should do a study someday of this truth. How many times did God give names to people!? And why would he do that if it weren't so important?

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. No, we cannot "separate" per se one attribute from another except, perhaps, as a mental exercise. However, if scripture itself places emphasis on certain truths, then it's incumbent upon us to acknowledge that and act accordingly. For example, have you considered why at the giving of the Law at Mt. Sinai, God strictly forbade anyone from even touch the base of the mountain on which he was to meet with Moses? The people and animals, etc. had to stay a certain distance away. Do you know why he did that? Or do you know why no mere mortal can see God and live? Or do you know why in the Tabernacle and then later in the subsequent Temples that were built, there was a room called the Holy of Holies? And do you know why no one could enter that room except one person at one specific time every year?

All these truths are lost to the Lights of this world, for it has not pleased God to reveal them to such people, but to you who profess to know God, I would encourage you to pick up your bible and search out these precious treasures prayerfully.

Be assured of this: I rejoice in God's precious love daily because it is a holy love. It's not the profane love of the world. Ultimately, therefore, I rejoice in who God is -- in totality.