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Old 01-22-2019, 08:52 PM   #91
chadk66
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Originally Posted by Jeff P View Post
Yes. I strongly believe that muscle mass - or more specifically - mass of quality muscle relative to body weight standpoint matters in athletic competition. Imo, that includes horse racing.

Imo, most of the ones I see in the paddock matching your description "skinny ass horses in the paddock obviously 200 lbs lighter than they should be" have really low win rates because they are up against it from a lack of mass of quality muscle relative to body weight standpoint. Just as I'd be if I were sprinting against an NFL safety or linebacker.



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using that analogy you can't go with loosing 20lbs of fluid to be of any benefit because it isn't loosing muscle. Man some of the angles on this are near tin foil hat level.
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Old 01-22-2019, 10:11 PM   #92
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Do you realize horses body weight can fluctuate 3-4% on a near daily basis?
Who cares?

We are talking about transient loss of weight in the 4-hour period following lasix administration. Regardless of all other factors, it is undeniable that the horse is shedding a discrete and significant portion of its weight right on top of a race relative to untreated horses.

Meanwhile, despite your ridicule, Jeff P made an important distinction when suggesting there is a difference between weight loss from increased urine output and that from losing or lacking muscle mass. Athletic performance (i.e., physical work) requires muscle. It does not require 20-30 lbs of urine.

In order for muscle to function, energy is required. Depending on the intensity of exercise, this energy is generated mainly from oxygen consumption (i.e., aerobic metabolism). At the point where oxygen consumption exceeds aerobic capacity, energy is produced anaerobically (i.e., without oxygen). Such work produces waste products that promote fatigue (lactic acid).

Simply put, lasix administration causes significant weight loss that does not affect the aerobic capacity of the animal. With less weight to deal with, there is less demand for anaerobic work which lowers the amount of lactic acid buildup, which in turn delays the onset of fatigue.

On top of that, there are changes to blood pH caused by lasix such that the blood is alkalinized (the same physiological mechanism behind milk shaking). This helps offset lactic acid buildup even more. Therefore lasix imparts a veritable "double whammy" that delays fatigue during athletic performance.

All your arguments regarding malnourishment, clinical dehydration, and the lack of massive move-ups are just more non-starters. It should be a given that we are comparing healthy, well-conditioned horses treated with lasix to healthy, well-conditioned horses not treated with lasix.

Yes, a horse in poor body condition will be uncompetitive; it will not “kick ass”.

Yes, giving lasix to an already dehydrated horse will probably cause more problems, not help them.

And no one suggested that the benefits of lasix (outside of its effects on bleeding) causes a horse to go from middling ability to elite status. But within it’s own class level, many a horse has been seen to transform from an indifferent performer to a win candidate with the addition of lasix. And that’s despite not even being a known bleeder in the first place.
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Old 01-22-2019, 11:03 PM   #93
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using that analogy you can't go with loosing 20lbs of fluid to be of any benefit because it isn't loosing muscle. Man some of the angles on this are near tin foil hat level.
I can buy a 2019 Ford F150 4x4 pickup truck that has an 8 foot bed, a curb weight of 5016 lbs, a high output Eco Boost V6 engine that generates 450 horsepower, and a drive train that delivers 510 foot-pounds of torque at the rear wheels.

If were to buy that truck and do custom work on it to get the curb weight down 3% to 4866 lbs:

The engine would still generate the same 450 horsepower, the drive train would still deliver the same 510 foot-pounds of torque at the rear wheels and THE TRUCK WOULD BE ABLE TO ACCELERATE FASTER BECAUSE IT IS LIGHTER.

From a physics standpoint, if you can reduce the weight of a horse by 3% (whether through Lasix or some other means) while keeping its engine and drive train (muscle mass and energy reserves) the same:

Just like the truck, the horse will be able to accelerate faster because it is lighter.

If you think this is tin foil hat stuff I really don't know what to say.



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Old 01-23-2019, 02:00 AM   #94
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But at some point, Lasix's performance enhancing capabilities (and masking capabilities) became clear enough that it became important to horsemen to administer the drug to horses who had never established themselves as bleeders.
Administering any medication to a living being when they don't have a diagnosis that requires it makes no logical sense. Ditto, giving every horse in a barn Thyro-L when they have no illness that requires its use (on or off-label).

The guys in bernie madoff's office, or the real life characters about whom wolf of wallstreet and boiler room were made, felt they needed some "synthetic energy" because a good sleep, a good breakfast, a morning walk, and a peppermint wasn't "performance enhancing" enough. When winning is everything, and there's big $$ in the picture, people tend to become rather illogical in their justification of certain practices.
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Old 01-23-2019, 07:44 AM   #95
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All this wasted energy on Lasix. It’s such a non-issue. If trainers believed for one second that it enables the cheaters by masking, they’d be all for banning it. They’re not. They want racing to figure out and get rid of the real cheating.

Sometimes you just have to accept that those who live and breathe and know every inch of the horses know more about them and how to care for them than those who just watch.
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Old 01-23-2019, 08:03 AM   #96
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using that analogy you can't go with loosing 20lbs of fluid to be of any benefit because it isn't loosing muscle. Man some of the angles on this are near tin foil hat level.
Curious....what was your winning % when training?....overall average...throw-out worst and best....
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Old 01-23-2019, 09:50 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Spalding No! View Post
Who cares?

We are talking about transient loss of weight in the 4-hour period following lasix administration. Regardless of all other factors, it is undeniable that the horse is shedding a discrete and significant portion of its weight right on top of a race relative to untreated horses.

Meanwhile, despite your ridicule, Jeff P made an important distinction when suggesting there is a difference between weight loss from increased urine output and that from losing or lacking muscle mass. Athletic performance (i.e., physical work) requires muscle. It does not require 20-30 lbs of urine.

In order for muscle to function, energy is required. Depending on the intensity of exercise, this energy is generated mainly from oxygen consumption (i.e., aerobic metabolism). At the point where oxygen consumption exceeds aerobic capacity, energy is produced anaerobically (i.e., without oxygen). Such work produces waste products that promote fatigue (lactic acid).

Simply put, lasix administration causes significant weight loss that does not affect the aerobic capacity of the animal. With less weight to deal with, there is less demand for anaerobic work which lowers the amount of lactic acid buildup, which in turn delays the onset of fatigue.

On top of that, there are changes to blood pH caused by lasix such that the blood is alkalinized (the same physiological mechanism behind milk shaking). This helps offset lactic acid buildup even more. Therefore lasix imparts a veritable "double whammy" that delays fatigue during athletic performance.

All your arguments regarding malnourishment, clinical dehydration, and the lack of massive move-ups are just more non-starters. It should be a given that we are comparing healthy, well-conditioned horses treated with lasix to healthy, well-conditioned horses not treated with lasix.

Yes, a horse in poor body condition will be uncompetitive; it will not “kick ass”.

Yes, giving lasix to an already dehydrated horse will probably cause more problems, not help them.

And no one suggested that the benefits of lasix (outside of its effects on bleeding) causes a horse to go from middling ability to elite status. But within it’s own class level, many a horse has been seen to transform from an indifferent performer to a win candidate with the addition of lasix. And that’s despite not even being a known bleeder in the first place.
20lbs is not a significant amount of weight to a horse.
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Old 01-23-2019, 10:00 AM   #98
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I can buy a 2019 Ford F150 4x4 pickup truck that has an 8 foot bed, a curb weight of 5016 lbs, a high output Eco Boost V6 engine that generates 450 horsepower, and a drive train that delivers 510 foot-pounds of torque at the rear wheels.

If were to buy that truck and do custom work on it to get the curb weight down 3% to 4866 lbs:

The engine would still generate the same 450 horsepower, the drive train would still deliver the same 510 foot-pounds of torque at the rear wheels and THE TRUCK WOULD BE ABLE TO ACCELERATE FASTER BECAUSE IT IS LIGHTER.

From a physics standpoint, if you can reduce the weight of a horse by 3% (whether through Lasix or some other means) while keeping its engine and drive train (muscle mass and energy reserves) the same:

Just like the truck, the horse will be able to accelerate faster because it is lighter.

If you think this is tin foil hat stuff I really don't know what to say.



-jp

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you just made the perfect analogy. Your example of the motor putting out identical horsepower is the constant in your study. You can adjust weight and whatever else aside from anything that alters hp and increase your performance. It’s not that way with horses because there is no constant involved. Things change with horses on a near hourly basis. If what you guys claim was true a third grader could make a living off gambling on horses. But I’ll tell you this as a mechanic for many many years given your exact analogy your not gonna make a significant enough performance gain in the quarter mile to hardly recognize it. Hp and weight is only two factors involved in a wide array of things that are involved in laying down good times.
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Old 01-23-2019, 10:05 AM   #99
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Curious....what was your winning % when training?....overall average...throw-out worst and best....
i honestly don’t know. It steadily went up over the years as I got better horses and learned more about what makes them tick. I looked once but as I dug into it I found win pictures of horses that didn’t show up on equibase. The one thing I do know off of memory my last year training during the Canterbury meet was 28% wins 53% top three finishes. But I had some very good horses that year. If I had to guess lifetime I would say 15-18% wins 25-30% in the money. But that’s just a guess
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Old 01-23-2019, 10:09 AM   #100
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Administering any medication to a living being when they don't have a diagnosis that requires it makes no logical sense. Ditto, giving every horse in a barn Thyro-L when they have no illness that requires its use (on or off-label).

The guys in bernie madoff's office, or the real life characters about whom wolf of wallstreet and boiler room were made, felt they needed some "synthetic energy" because a good sleep, a good breakfast, a morning walk, and a peppermint wasn't "performance enhancing" enough. When winning is everything, and there's big $$ in the picture, people tend to become rather illogical in their justification of certain practices.
I agree. And I don’t believe in giving non bleeders lasix. I’ve said that many times on here. I don’t agree with the rule that all an use. I agree with the old rules where they had to be certified bleeders. Giving a horse that bleeds lasix is a diagnosed issue and should be remedied. But the industry felt in fairness all should be able to use it. Which I don’t agree with.
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Old 01-23-2019, 10:13 AM   #101
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All this wasted energy on Lasix. It’s such a non-issue. If trainers believed for one second that it enables the cheaters by masking, they’d be all for banning it. They’re not. They want racing to figure out and get rid of the real cheating.

Sometimes you just have to accept that those who live and breathe and know every inch of the horses know more about them and how to care for them than those who just watch.
This is actually the best statement I’ve read regarding this. I can tell honestly that no trainer on the planet cared more about a horses well being than I did. I never one used a prohibited medication on a horse in my career. I’ve never so much as had a bute overage. Only certified bleeders ever used lasix in my barn. I could go on and on.
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Old 01-23-2019, 01:32 PM   #102
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I can assure you bleeding during a race is far more traumatic than any needle. You must be one that cant handle shots lol. And believe me getting scoped is far more uncomfortable than a shot by a large margin. But I know what your saying, you think they shouldn't even be vaccinated in fear of inflicting pain.
No, no, no. I don't think that. I was using "sticking needles into him" as a synonym for getting drugged.

I'm no vet, and I'm entirely out of my element when discussing horse health care. But I do know what a hangover feels like, and from what I understand, some of these performance enhancing procedures can have after effects that a horse would probably prefer to avoid.
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Old 01-23-2019, 03:17 PM   #103
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So far, Jeff has presented hard evidence.
No one else has any to support their theories?
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Old 01-23-2019, 07:36 PM   #104
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No, no, no. I don't think that. I was using "sticking needles into him" as a synonym for getting drugged.

I'm no vet, and I'm entirely out of my element when discussing horse health care. But I do know what a hangover feels like, and from what I understand, some of these performance enhancing procedures can have after effects that a horse would probably prefer to avoid.
I can promise you that doesn't happen with lasix. Hell some humans use it on a daily basis. A horse gets 20cc's day of the race which now days is every three weeks if they're lucky lol. Even perfectly healthy horses get shots on a regular basis. Every time a horse ships they get antibiotics. I vaccinated my two year olds for flu and rhino once a month. Tube deworming a horse is far more tramatic for a horse than 99% of the stuff they encounter. Getting shoes on can be far more uncomfortable for a horse than getting a simple shot. I have to have blood drawn on a regular basis and I don't even feel the needle. Horses don't have the brain a human has. They don't think about things the way humans do. First of Nov. I had a 1500 lb round bale land flat on top of my lab. I literally had to take the tractor and lift the bale up off of her. Figured she was dead for certain. Lifted the bale up and out she came. She split the end of her humerous bone at the joint. She had surgery couple days later to insert a screw. Which was only $350 I might add, figured it was gonna be ridiculous. Anyway within a few days she was a pain in the ass to even lead out to the bathroom because she felt so good. She went pheasant hunting six weeks later and busted ass all day with zero display of any discomfort. Animals are extremely resilient. Late last summer we bought a new five year old quarter horse mare. She had only a dozen rides on her. My wife is going to get her ready for the granddaughter because she is only 13.5 hands high. She had about ten rides on her and she was going great. Rode her one evening and the next morning she looked out in the pasture and she was acting weird as hell. She went and led her to the barn and she was walking like she was stone cold drunk. Hauled her to the vet. could barely get her out of the trailer. Drew blood and sent it off. Took four days to get the results that she had west nile. even though she was vaccinated. We figured she wouldn't make it. But she was a hell of a fighter. After a week she came around amazingly. Two weeks later she was running around like nuts.
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Old 01-23-2019, 08:24 PM   #105
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Curious....what was your winning % when training?....overall average...throw-out worst and best....
Here is what equibase has for my last two years. The previous four years (I trained six years) was really a roller coaster ride because such a large percentage of my horses were two year olds those years. The last two years were the most consistent in regards to even distribution of all ages. The last year I was actually training privately for an individual in MN. I started training at age 20. So I was pretty young lol. But I was very involved in many things race horse. I was involved in a major study with the University of MN regarding breakdowns. I was also doing R&D with the 3M corporation for the last few years I trained. So I guess what I'm trying to say is I probably wasn't your run of the mill trainer. We also had a breeding farm down the road and had a dozen broodmares and stood a stallion. So a lot of these horses were home breds. My early years it was a struggle because my dad was one of those that wanted to breed any horse with a heart beat to our stallion because it was free lol. So the quality sucked. Took me several years to knock some sense into him and get him to understand that costs way more money. Once he understood that then things took off. You have to have a certain level of quality to win races aside from doing all the other things for them. Can't squeeze blood from a turnip so to speak.



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