Trayvon Martin

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by Pell Mell

If Martin was carrying, legally, and had cause to believe he was in danger he would be within his rights according to the law...did Zim identify himself? We don't know do we but we all have opinions..suppose Martin said "Hey man" wachoo foll'in me fo? and then gets nasty and decides to F**k up this dude..which is what I think happened...see, we all have opinions and if Zim was charged and I was on the jury he would walk...that's what's wrong with this country today...people are so use to taking shit, and we know who the waiters are that are serving it up, they think that's how it's supposed to be..

Its too bad really...

If Martin had been 4 years older, the age needed to legally own a handgun, he might still be alive...

I guess its his fault for not being born early enough...

[bigmack]

Originally Posted by lsbets

I guess you don't understand that justice does not mean a guilty verdict. It means a thorough and complete investigation followed by a trial if warranted. I would think everyone would want that, especially when someone ends up dead.

And again, the people in this thread with the most knowledge of the use of force have said they don't feel the shooting was justified. Doesn't that at least cause you to pause for two seconds?

To your first point, I was addressing those impatient for a charge. Why hasn't it happened yet, they ask.

As to the testimony of JRalph, as I hinted, I don't give much credence to any testimony in a 'heat of the battle' case. I trust JR knows his stuff but this was -Bing Bang Boom. I've been involved in a few and they can be chaotic.

I've seen adreline rushes do some damage. I suspect you have as well.

At this point I certainly don't think Georgie Boy is HALF the monster he's been made out to be. I have an ability to read people fairly well just by their voice. Georgie is a gentle little nerd. He screamed like a girl. He legally had a gun. he freaked out. The kid is dead. I feel bad. It happens.

You want to make Georgie into a T-Shirt to be sold at the next swap meet? Live it up.

[lsbets]

Originally Posted by bigmack

To your first point, I was addressing those impatient for a charge. Why hasn't it happened yet, they ask.

As to the testimony of JRalph, as I hinted, I don't give much credence to any testimony in a 'heat of the battle' case. I trust JR knows his stuff but this was -Bing Bang Boom. I've been involved in a few and they can be chaotic.

I've seen adreline rushes do some damage. I suspect you have as well.

At this point I certainly don't think Georgie Boy is HALF the monster he's been made out to be. I have an ability to read people fairly well just by their voice. Georgie is a gentle little nerd. He screamed like a girl. He legally had a gun. he freaked out. The kid is dead. I feel bad. It happens.

You want to make Georgie into a T-Shirt to be sold at the next swap meet? Live it up.

On the second point, that is why I don't think most people should carry a gun (I do think everyone should be able to own one). Its hard enough to have trained people be able to use proper judgement regarding the use of force. I kept guys on base because I did not trust their judgement in iffy situations and wouldn't let them go back out until I was comfortable. I won't let my wife carry a gun. If she got in a bad situation and tried to use it, she (like most people) would probably get herself in a worse situation. I don't trust most cops to carry a taser, let alone a gun. This nerd, as you call him, should not have been carrying. He is not qualified.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by lsbets

On the second point, that is why I don't think most people should carry a gun (I do think everyone should be able to own one). Its hard enough to have trained people be able to use proper judgement regarding the use of force. I kept guys on base because I did not trust their judgement in iffy situations and wouldn't let them go back out until I was comfortable. I won't let my wife carry a gun. If she got in a bad situation and tried to use it, she (like most people) would probably get herself in a worse situation. I don't trust most cops to carry a taser, let alone a gun. This nerd, as you call him, should not have been carrying. He is not qualified.

Whats more depressing though is the... "egh... dead kid... it happens..." attitude. Thats whats troublesome and why many were quick to cry race in this case. Mack is completely entitled to feel that way I guess but the DA and the Police are not.

[bigmack]

Originally Posted by lsbets

This nerd, as you call him, should not have been carrying. He is not qualified.

Yea. By the hway, I think I've overused nerd. So I'll retire it. I've always meant it in the bestest of ways.

See, now we're back in an area where I would have thought we could have been way back when. As a gun dude it would be of interest to hear the take from your perspective on gun laws and cases like this, because there are others.

Nutty no one has come forward to answer the question of how much of threat does a person have to feel they're under to bang. Bang. Bang. Bang.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by bigmack

Yea. By the hway, I think I've overused nerd. So I'll retire it. I've always meant it in the bestest of ways.

See, now we're back in an area where I would have thought we could have been way back when. As a gun dude it would be of interest to hear the take from your perspective on gun laws and cases like this, because there are others.

Nutty no one has come forward to answer the question of how much of threat does a person have to feel they're under to bang. Bang. Bang. Bang.

First:

It shows that our gun laws are still way to soft in some areas and more strenuous in others. Zimmerman should not have been allowed to own a gun as he has hit a police officer in the past. However, in a situation like this gun laws should be enforced via the available laws on the books and what would go a long way to doing that would be trying Zimmerman for Manslaughter. Part of the responsibility of having a carry permit is learning how to avoid using it and because he failed miserably in this department a teen is dead.

Second:

The castle law if fine. This case demonstrates stand your ground is not really effective and people should always try running first. For me... if someone is in my house they are in a lot of trouble. Outside of the home I would have to feel my life or someone with me is in real danger. The person would have to be armed with something for me to consider using deadly force and it would only be after I made an attempt at avoiding the situation.

[lsbets]

Originally Posted by bigmack

Yea. By the hway, I think I've overused nerd. So I'll retire it. I've always meant it in the bestest of ways.

See, now we're back in an area where I would have thought we could have been way back when. As a gun dude it would be of interest to hear the take from your perspective on gun laws and cases like this, because there are others.

Nutty no one has come forward to answer the question of how much of threat does a person have to feel they're under to bang. Bang. Bang. Bang.

I'm far from a gun dude. I have guns, and obviously I've used guns, but my image of a "gun dude" is the guy who goes to gun shows, loves to hunt, and does all his Christmas shopping at Bass Pro. Me, I think hunting is boring and pointless. I keep a gun in my car, but only because I sometimes have large amounts of cash on me and as a show of force its more intimidating than a 5'8, 155 lb guy (me). But unless someone else pulled a gun out I wouldn't use it here, 155 lb me would do just fine unarmed.

How much threat to use deadly force? Its tough to quantify. Book answer is feeling that your life is threatened. I've never dealt with that domestically, so my experience doesn't count for much. Being shot at clearly means your life is threatened. Having someone continue to approach after you point a gun at them clearly means your life is threatened. In this case as a third party reader of what happened, Zimmerman's life was not threatened. But his defense will be that he thought it was.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

First:

It shows that our gun laws are still way to soft in some areas and more strenuous in others. Zimmerman should not have been allowed to own a gun as he has hit a police officer in the past. However, in a situation like this gun laws should be enforced via the available laws on the books and what would go a long way to doing that would be trying Zimmerman for Manslaughter. Part of the responsibility of having a carry permit is learning how to avoid using it and because he failed miserably in this department a teen is dead.

Second:

The castle law if fine. This case demonstrates stand your ground is not really effective and people should always try running first. For me... if someone is in my house they are in a lot of trouble. Outside of the home I would have to feel my life or someone with me is in real danger. The person would have to be armed with something for me to consider using deadly force and it would only be after I made an attempt at avoiding the situation.

Since you have used the term "avoiding", I must ask you this. Perhaps you will answer. If you had been on the phone with Martin during the last few minutes of his life, what would you have advised him to do in his situation?

Boxcar

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by lsbets

I'm far from a gun dude. I have guns, and obviously I've used guns, but my image of a "gun dude" is the guy who goes to gun shows, loves to hunt, and does all his Christmas shopping at Bass Pro. Me, I think hunting is boring and pointless. I keep a gun in my car, but only because I sometimes have large amounts of cash on me and as a show of force its more intimidating than a 5'8, 155 lb guy (me). But unless someone else pulled a gun out I wouldn't use it here, 155 lb me would do just fine unarmed.

Thats actually a pretty funny description of a "gun dude." I would be a gun dude by those standards but almost never have my carry weapon with me. You aren't a "gun dude" that routinely carries.

Not trying to make any kind of point just find it interesting. I think people that are always carrying are "gun dudes."

I guess the lesson is no one ever really wants to think of themselves as a "gun dude."

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Since you have used the term "avoiding", I must ask you this. Perhaps you will answer. If you had been on the phone with Martin during the last few minutes of his life, what would you have advised him to do in his situation?

Boxcar

Leave or ask the guy what he wants.

[Pell Mell]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Another idiot is born...welcome to the world Pell Mell

You are so easy it's unbelievable...so much so that you had to sneak over to another thread to throw some shit in the game...you are one sanctimonious piss ant...

[bigmack]

Originally Posted by lsbets

But his defense will be that he thought it was.

Sure will. Thought that was clear all along.

Case was brought to our initial attention for its racial angle brought about by a news organization. Can I legitimately call NBC, legitimate? Not in good conscience.

A case that should be further explored? Soitantly!

We're now exploring it. The more time passes the clearer heads will prevail and find some answers. We both know if they had much of ANYTHING charges would have easily been filed. IF they file, it'll be weak. If he's found not guilty, get Rodney King on the phone to recite - "Can't we all..."

Must say, Buckaroo. While emotions have run high and all are 'holding ground' you flew off the tracks on that 'Don' is a Clansman and I'm a worthless PoS by not denouncing.

Do know, I don't take any of this serious. Nice to kick around subs of the day without people in the house.

Chicky, Ely, Tom, PA, and every other memba but Box is gunnin' for me. Oh, and the usual nerds. (Damn, did I use nerds again?)



Boxcar

[lsbets]

Mack, not trying to get back on it, but it would have been nice (what a lame word) if you got on the guys on "your side" of the issue who have been pushing their race angle on it. Even tonight PA called Pell Mell out on it. Don linked to that site, Box and Pell are clearly inclined to think the black kid has to be at fault, and jelly's contributions have amounted to a daily flow of news articles about murders committed by blacks. I think his point is that the media doesn't cover them, but he's using that very media as his source for the crimes. There is a clear racial undertone from Zimmerman's most fervent backers, and its ugly.

Maybe I went overboard in my reaction to you. I apologize. But I was honestly surprised you didn't say cut the shit it stinks.

[lsbets]

Originally Posted by Pell Mell

You are so easy it's unbelievable...so much so that you had to sneak over to another thread to throw some shit in the game...you are one sanctimonious piss ant...

Just peeked into that other thread. Something tells me you won't be posting here after tonight. Just a hunch.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Pell Mell

You are so easy it's unbelievable...so much so that you had to sneak over to another thread to throw some shit in the game...you are one sanctimonious piss ant...

Could you talk some more in what you believe might be the vernacular of the late Trayvon Martin? It was so cute the first time around, I'd really like to hear more...

You know, some might call you a racist for what you wrote in this thread...

And I didn't throw any shit in that other thread...unless by shit, you mean the God's honest truth.

PS. GFY