Florida Derby (only)

[CincyHorseplayer]

Originally Posted by Bennie

I am just glad that Take Charge got enough $$$ now to make the Derby. Lost Algorithms and Empire Way off my futures bets leaving just Hansen at 26-1 and Take Charge at 42-1 live on my tickets. Don't know that Take Charge can win the Derby but at least I have a live ticket. Would have liked for Union Rags to get 2nd as I had a 3 with 6 with 8,9 super ticket but I was not disappointed with the race by Union Rags as a whole. Everyone knows you don't want to be 100% cranked "before" the Derby. Ran a respectable race and will move forward from there.

Damn.That stung me too with the misses.Good take overall Bennie.

[CincyHorseplayer]

d

Originally Posted by Steve R

OTOH, Dixie Union sired over 600 foals and about 500 starters, not one of which ever won a major stakes race beyond 9f on any surface. Gone West mares have produced over 2100 foals and almost 1600 starters, only one of which ever won a major stakes race beyond 9f on dirt. That runner was by Giant's Causeway, one of the world's premier classic distance sires. Regardless of what a horse looks like at 9f, 10f is a different world.

I've heard and read this.You actually did watch the way he finished in the FOY though didn't you?That IMO was no illusion.

Like I said in an earlier post,I'm enjoying the scrutiny.You guys are driving up the price with each and every post on UR.I liked him after the last win but bet the advantage horse in this race,so don't accuse me of being the blind believer.

I do believe in this horse's talents though.And think the Derby will provide the stage for him to display those talents.And pi$s on those sire stats.Amen!

[CincyHorseplayer]

Originally Posted by Grits

Nope, had nothing to do with Balto Star, Point Given, if one fails to recall, didn't show up that day.

Monarchos did.

Yeah,following a pretty hardcore pace.Monarchos was one of the ultimate derby and nothing winners which totally suggests pace fluke.

Maybe you need to sit me down and cook a southern meal for me girl.becuase I'm not getting it!

[camourous]

Originally Posted by nijinski

Per Trakus: Fastest final sixteenth in the Fla Derby , Union Rags 6.37 , El Padrino 6.49 .

These numbers are as meaningless as Dialed In running the fastest last whatever in the KY Derby last year..

[senortout]

I must disagree with suggestions that some horses(Union Rags, El Padrino) were not well meant in a one million dollar race.
Give us some hope for this game, wouldj'a?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by FenceBored

You need someone to "Name one" elite jockey who would like to have Calvin's record of three Ky Derby wins?

In order to avoid arguments on who is/isn't really an elite jockey I'll limit my submissions to two:

Ramon Dominguez
Garrett Gomez

Am I saying they would trade their overall careers for his? Don't be silly, but would they trade their record in the Ky Derby for his? Yeah, I think so.

I don't believe that was the way it was framed. I took it to mean there are elite jockeys out there who would trade CAREERS with Calvin just to have those three Derby wins...

That's how I took it anyway...that's why I challenged someone to name one...

Who WOULDN'T want to trade their record in the Derby ONLY, for Calvin's? That's a rather stupid, rhetorical question, don't you think?

I maintain the point was that they would trade OVERALL CAREERS just to have those Derby wins. That's the only thing that makes sense.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by MickJ26

Isn't this a "Florida Derby" thread where we discuss the merits of the race? Seems like it's become who loves Calvin versus who doesn't love Calvin.

Yeah...stuff happens...

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Grits

With only two of your posts, its a bit easier than you may think to determine where your comments are aimed--without question--at The Blind Squirrel, dba, Calvin Borel.

I think you're not admitting that you made a crappy comment, and your points are meeting with disagreement and I'm sorry.

Still, you're gonna tell me and everyone else here with some current 2012 stat listing based on earnings that Junior Alvarado, David Cohen, and Irad Ortiz are elite jockeys, and, therefore, have earned this distinction simply based on a stats list? Odd that each in NY isn't it? That these riders are more talented than The Blind Squirrel?

Right, and I got beachfront in Arkansas.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...g-jockeys/2012

My comments weren't crappy at all...I welcome all to disagree at will.

I never said any of those fellas were elite jockeys. The point was, how can Calvin be you and others have him all cracked up to be, if he can't even get on the same list as some of the guys I mentioned (none of whom, I believe are in NY...Kerwin John, Alejandro Medellin...etc).

But it's all moot anyway...Calvin is now on the list...coming in at #49 after the Florida Derby score...

[Steve R]

Originally Posted by CincyHorseplayer

d

I've heard and read this.You actually did watch the way he finished in the FOY though didn't you?That IMO was no illusion.

Like I said in an earlier post,I'm enjoying the scrutiny.You guys are driving up the price with each and every post on UR.I liked him after the last win but bet the advantage horse in this race,so don't accuse me of being the blind believer.

I do believe in this horse's talents though.And think the Derby will provide the stage for him to display those talents.And pi$s on those sire stats.Amen!

Yes, I watched the FOY. I guess you'd be surprised to know that almost a dozen other Derby contenders ran a faster last quarter in their route preps this year than Union Rags did in the FOY.

And why the focus on how a horse "looks" on the track compared to how "fast" it runs? I'm sure it's a coincidence (NOT), but my Florida Derby figures show the top three running within a half length of their respective 2012 best efforts. The only surprises to me were that Union Rags was a ridiculous 1/5 and that El Padrino regressed more than I thought he would.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Originally Posted by Steve R

Yes, I watched the FOY. I guess you'd be surprised to know that almost a dozen other Derby contenders ran a faster last quarter in their route preps this year than Union Rags did in the FOY.

And why the focus on how a horse "looks" on the track compared to how "fast" it runs? I'm sure it's a coincidence (NOT), but my Florida Derby figures show the top three running within a half length of their respective 2012 best efforts. The only surprises to me were that Union Rags was a ridiculous 1/5 and that El Padrino regressed more than I thought he would.

I thought the odds on Union Rags were ridiculous beyond belief too.Hence I bet Take Charge Indy with 5% of my bankroll which would be the ceiling of a prime bet.I'm not locked in to any one horse.

I do believe in the talent of Union Rags and his figures in the FOY were fast enough and yes,with a modicum of pace I DO believe he can outrun his pedigree and win the KY Derby.Yes.The visual impression,which you clearly don't believe in, coupled with a decent figure off a layoff and a step back 2nd time out and a likely fast paced scenario going longer does make me optimistic.There is enough objective and subjective evidence to hint at much.

And we are talking 3yo's here.Their form cycles are fickle and for many,frustrating.As a player playing against a player I look forward to these frustrations.They are profitable.I can't say what the next one will be,yesterday it was an underestimated Take Charge Indy,tomorrow it might be Union Rags.Then again it might not.Point being I'm not as zealous in my representation about opinions on a horse as you are.Nail me to the cross about what I do,not what I believe.In this thread I did bet Take Charge Indy.What did you bet so I can crucify your azz?In short,I am not buying your argument and vice versa.Our opinions will be validated at the windows.Post on here beforehand.

[FenceBored]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I don't believe that was the way it was framed. I took it to mean there are elite jockeys out there who would trade CAREERS with Calvin just to have those three Derby wins...

That's how I took it anyway...that's why I challenged someone to name one...

Who WOULDN'T want to trade their record in the Derby ONLY, for Calvin's? That's a rather stupid, rhetorical question, don't you think?

I maintain the point was that they would trade OVERALL CAREERS just to have those Derby wins. That's the only thing that makes sense.

How do we get from this:

I'm not saying he's an elite jock but give this some thought...the dream of every jock is to win the KY Derby and Calvin has realized that dream 3 times...I would bet that a lot of so called "Elite" jocks would love to have his record...say what you will, you can't take that away from the man.. [img]images/UBGX/04.gif[/img]
-- http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...8&postcount=45

to the idea that he was talking about trading overall careers? I just don't see it.

Let's overanalysis it for giggles.

1. I'm not saying he's an elite jock but give this some thought...
2. the dream of every jock is to win the KY Derby and Calvin has realized that dream 3 times...
3. I would bet that a lot of so called "Elite" jocks would love to have his record...
4. say what you will, you can't take that away from the man.. [img]images/UBGX/04.gif[/img]

There's Pell Mell's entire post broken into four parts. If he had only said (3), you'd be right. However, he starts off with (1) paraphrased as 'Calvin isn't an elite jock.' How can we square (3) 'elite jocks would love to have his record' with (1) 'Calvin isn't an elite jock'? Why would an elite jock want the record of a non-elite jock? They wouldn't, but they might want one part, such as (2) 'Calvin has won the KY Derby 3 times.' That leaves (4) 'you can't take that away from him,' which also only makes sense in the context of (2).

I know some of the Borelians were rioting like the Cat fans in Lexington last night, but Pell Mell wasn't setting a couch on fire.

All he is saying is "give Cal some love."

[Pell Mell]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

My comments weren't crappy at all...I welcome all to disagree at will.

I never said any of those fellas were elite jockeys. The point was, how can Calvin be you and others have him all cracked up to be, if he can't even get on the same list as some of the guys I mentioned (none of whom, I believe are in NY...Kerwin John, Alejandro Medellin...etc).

But it's all moot anyway...Calvin is now on the list...coming in at #49 after the Florida Derby score...

Having given it some thought I could have framed my post differently. here is what I basically meant:

Take baseball for instance; how many elite players have been a world series hero? Seems it's always some light hitting guy that steps up and there were a lot of ball players that were not known for great hitting but were considered great clutch hitters. I knew 2 jocks personally, Joe Culmone and Frank Lovato Sr. that were not among the leaders most of the time but when a stable wanted to put one over they would always go to them because they would get the job done without being overbet by the public.

And last but not least, there are the war heros who, most of the time, were the guys least likely to be expected to do something heroic. The big tough guys were usually nowhere to be found.

Which means that there are some people who rise to the occasion rather than apple up. Calvin is one of those guys! No fantastic record, nothing flashy, but when the chips are down you can count on Calvin to do the job.

So, that's what I feel and what I meant. JMO

PS- That's my last word on the subject.

[PhantomOnTour]

Like i said in another thread regarding Borel:

He's like Robert Horry...pretty good player with a serious knack for hitting the big one.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by FenceBored

How do we get from this:

I'm not saying he's an elite jock but give this some thought...the dream of every jock is to win the KY Derby and Calvin has realized that dream 3 times...I would bet that a lot of so called "Elite" jocks would love to have his record...say what you will, you can't take that away from the man.. [img]images/UBGX/04.gif[/img]
-- http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...8&postcount=45

to the idea that he was talking about trading overall careers? I just don't see it.

Let's overanalysis it for giggles.

1. I'm not saying he's an elite jock but give this some thought...
2. the dream of every jock is to win the KY Derby and Calvin has realized that dream 3 times...
3. I would bet that a lot of so called "Elite" jocks would love to have his record...
4. say what you will, you can't take that away from the man.. [img]images/UBGX/04.gif[/img]

There's Pell Mell's entire post broken into four parts. If he had only said (3), you'd be right. However, he starts off with (1) paraphrased as 'Calvin isn't an elite jock.' How can we square (3) 'elite jocks would love to have his record' with (1) 'Calvin isn't an elite jock'? Why would an elite jock want the record of a non-elite jock? They wouldn't, but they might want one part, such as (2) 'Calvin has won the KY Derby 3 times.' That leaves (4) 'you can't take that away from him,' which also only makes sense in the context of (2).

I know some of the Borelians were rioting like the Cat fans in Lexington last night, but Pell Mell wasn't setting a couch on fire.

All he is saying is "give Cal some love."

No need to over analyze anything.

Obviously, every jockey who hasn't won the Derby would love to win the Derby...so I'm sure every single jockey, whether elite or not, would love to have Calvin's record in the Derby.

This goes without saying. No debate. No argument.

I didn't think Pell Mell was stating something so glaringly obvious. I thought he was saying these elite jocks would gladly trade WHATEVER MORE they have accomplished over Calvin, for Calvin's Derby wins.

Why wouldn't every jock want to have Calvin's record in the Ky. Derby? Especially if they didn't have to sacrifice anything to get it...

[pktruckdriver]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

My comments weren't crappy at all...I welcome all to disagree at will.

I never said any of those fellas were elite jockeys. The point was, how can Calvin be you and others have him all cracked up to be, if he can't even get on the same list as some of the guys I mentioned (none of whom, I believe are in NY...Kerwin John, Alejandro Medellin...etc).

But it's all moot anyway...Calvin is now on the list...coming in at #49 after the Florida Derby score...

Wow you got a list Bossman, can we see it , please. Is there a link to it??

Patrick