hoops back in the day

[Half Smoke]

Originally Posted by TJDave

I have a distinct ingrained dislike for the modern game of basketball. Not that I don’t appreciate the talent of modern athletes, I do. It’s just not the game I was taught. I grew up in the 50’s-60’s and learned the game in jr-high and high school. Palming and traveling were no-no’s. You’d get benched for that. I see it now and can’t get past it. It just pisses me to no end. When I watch a drive and count the steps everyone travels.

Am I the only one?

I think you have a point - more with palming than traveling

I think it sometimes just looks like traveling because the players are so tall and their legs are so long and they cover so much ground

and I believe your point pertains more to the NBA than college

the score of the last NBA All Star game was 163 to 160

the fans love offense - players getting one or two steps on the defense and flying thru the lane

the NBA - being highly profit motivated and highly attuned to the numbers in the stands and on the TVs definitely tends to allow this

and now that I think of it - it is very rare to see palming or traveling called

I remember when Allen Iverson was so blatantly palming - there was a controversy about it - but he didn't stop and the refs rarely if ever called it


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[Half Smoke]

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YouTube

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[olddaddy]

Originally Posted by TJDave

I have a distinct ingrained dislike for the modern game of basketball. Not that I don’t appreciate the talent of modern athletes, I do. It’s just not the game I was taught. I grew up in the 50’s-60’s and learned the game in jr-high and high school. Palming and traveling were no-no’s. You’d get benched for that. I see it now and can’t get past it. It just pisses me to no end. When I watch a drive and count the steps everyone travels.

Am I the only one?

It was also a non physical game. Fouls were called with contact.

[Half Smoke]

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it's truly amazing to me how the players have evolved

Bob Cousy retired in '63 - he was considered one of the game's greatest players at that time

I never saw him in person but I've watched films of him

there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that a few of the high school guards that I saw play in the DC area around '67 or '68 could have wiped the floor with Bob Cousy.

don't get me wrong - I'm not knocking the guy or trying to beat up on him - he was great for his era

but they were just much quicker than him and could jump much higher - he was a better passer than them - but that's all he had on them

stuff like this is hard to believe - but it's true - in my mind


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[Inner Dirt]

Originally Posted by Half Smoke

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it's truly amazing to me how the players have evolved
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I cannot believe how high some of these guys can jump. I think some guys just have genetic superiority for jumping. Byron Scott used to work out at a fitness center in San Juan Capistrano that I went to in the off season toward the later part of his career. I shared some of the leg machines with him a few times and for the life of me could not figure how that guy easily dunks a basketball and my peak jumping I could barely dunk a tennis ball. There wasn't any leg workout where I was not stronger or had better endurance.
The guy is about 6'1" an inch taller than me, not the listed 6'4" He is only a month younger than me. I had a few more pounds of muscle on me than him
by maybe 20 or so pounds.


Also when back in Cousy's day a lot of guys weren't working on their craft full time, just like the NFL, they had other jobs. Also with the internet I am pretty sure hidden talent doesn't go undiscovered any more.


What I find most amazing is the evolution of the women's game. They seem so much more athletic and talented than the pre WNBA days.

[mountainman]

I'm skeptical that modern players are more skilled or athletic than their predecessors. In support of these doubts, my dad and I followed the 1967 Ambridge "bridgers" to a then much coveted Pennsylvania state championship in basketball. The team finished unbeaten, and pretty much unchallenged. Southwestern PA hoops during that era was a hotbed of talent and a legendary breeding ground of future pros. Names like Norm Vanlier, Maurice Lukas, and Brad Davis come to mind. And there were lots more (in other sports, as well).

But anecdotally, and more to my point, I recall that when teams from Ambridge's old section 8, most very formidable in their own right, warmed up for games, the cylinder clogged with balls every few seconds, and much of the pre-game entailed punching those balls loose-over..and over..and over. And the tip drills these teams featured in warmups not only were military in their precision, but required great athleticism from players as in succession they climbed high into the air, each with incredible grace and timing, to tip the ball precisely to the same spot, the drill always culminating with a thunderous dunk.

And the games themselves featured sure-handed dribbling, uncanny marksmanship, and tons of authoritative slam dunks. Every player, it sometimes seemed, could jam it.

Modern teams feature more strut and theatricality, but are they really better? I'm not so sure about that. Not at all.

[Half Smoke]

Originally Posted by mountainman

I'm skeptical that modern players are more skilled or athletic than their predecessors. In support of these doubts, my dad and I followed the 1967 Ambridge "bridgers" to a then much coveted Pennsylvania state championship in basketball. The team finished unbeaten, and pretty much unchallenged. Southwestern PA hoops during that era was a hotbed of talent and a legendary breeding ground of future pros. Names like Norm Vanlier, Maurice Lukas, and Brad Davis come to mind. And there were lots more (in other sports, as well).

But anecdotally, and more to my point, I recall that when teams from Ambridge's old section 8, most very formidable in their own right, warmed up for games, the cylinder clogged with balls every few seconds, and much of the pre-game entailed punching those balls loose-over..and over..and over. And the tip drills these teams featured in warmups not only were military in their precision, but required great athleticism from players as in succession they climbed high into the air, each with incredible grace and timing, to tip the ball precisely to the same spot, the drill always culminating with a thunderous dunk.

And the games themselves featured sure-handed dribbling, uncanny marksmanship, and tons of authoritative slam dunks. Every player, it sometimes seemed, could jam it.

Modern teams feature more strut and theatricality, but are they really better? I'm not so sure about that. Not at all.

I appreciate what you're saying - but I believe you have a bias
you love those teams from back in the day

and they were great - I love those teams too and love thinking about them

I have some bias too - but the players were not as athletically gifted as those today as you say

let's look at just one think you mention - dunks

if you watch highlights today on the dunks many have their head about rim high and their hand is close to the top of the backboard - some of the best of them anyway

then look at highlights on youtube from back in the day

no way the dunks were like that - most only had their wrists over the rim

except for Dr. J and maybe one or 2 others

now, it's dozens who can get up like that

on other stuff like quickness and strength the players of today are superior too but it's harder to show

there were never any players who could do what Lebron and MJ and could do and who could match up with them well

one player I loved from back in the day who had fabulous stats was Elgin Baylor - DC's greatest ever. as much as I appreciate what he did there was no way he was the equal of Lebron or MJ



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[mountainman]

Originally Posted by Half Smoke

I appreciate what you're saying - but I believe you have a bias
you love those teams from back in the day

and they were great - I love those teams too and love thinking about them

I have some bias too - but the players were not as athletically gifted as those today as you say

let's look at just one think you mention - dunks

if you watch highlights today on the dunks many have their head about rim high and their hand is close to the top of the backboard - some of the best of them anyway

then look at highlights on youtube from back in the day

no way the dunks were like that - most only had their wrists over the rim

except for Dr. J and maybe one or 2 others

now, it's dozens who can get up like that

on other stuff like quickness and strength the players of today are superior too but it's harder to show

there were never any players who could do what Lebron and MJ and could do and who could match up with them well

one player I loved from back in the day who had fabulous stats was Elgin Baylor - DC's greatest ever. as much as I appreciate what he did there was no way he was the equal of Lebron or MJ



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I get what you're saying, but do think you are conflating athleticism and theatricality. I suspect plenty of players from the era I (admittedly) look back on so fondly could have put on quite a show had the goal been to wow rather than simply to score.

Also, the modern brand of ball is much sloppier than back in the day and leads to lots of turnovers, whereas the teams and players I invoked rarely coughed over the rock.

Tx for responding. Fun topic. And I realize most observers would side with you.

[Inner Dirt]

Originally Posted by Half Smoke

I appreciate what you're saying - but I believe you have a bias
you love those teams from back in the day

and they were great - I love those teams too and love thinking about them

I have some bias too - but the players were not as athletically gifted as those today as you say
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The big difference between the players in Bob Cousy's era and today are many. What I think is pure comedy is there are young folks that claim human
evolution is a big part of it.


Foreign born players were a rarity, training methods were archaic, most athletes did not even lift weights and diets were poor. Medicine and nutrition including supplements are vastly improved. We also have illegal substances that improve performance that a lot of players get away with using.



Bob Cousy should be judged against his peers not against players that came decades after him.

[Half Smoke]

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7'9" no need to jump slam dunker Abiodun Adegoke - from Nigeria - just 19

years old - currently rocking rims all over Dubai - the NBA is watching


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[Robert Fischer]

I miss the culture of playing basketball in the streets.

As far as today's NBA goes, I'm less interested now that I don't play or coach anywhere.

Feel old, as I resent the lack of defense in today's NBA. There's not much hand contact on the perimeter, if a scorer(and there's usually 5 on the floor, not many 'Charles Oakley' defensive enforcers) if a scorer 'follows through' into the defender, they call a foul on the defender.

Lots of 3s and open court scores and dunks.

The playoffs can still display great basketball.

Physically the players today are better. A 'Wilt Chamberlain' or any of the elite past athletes would be elite today, it's just that today they are more common and they have better medication, better training... The volume of 3s has helped US basketball and foreign scouted athletic talents, to finally start developing forwards and centers into more of a well rounded perimeter player. Aside from Larry Bird and a few others, the Euro basketball had been years ahead of the curve as far as skilled, intelligent bigs. Nikola Jokic is a legitimate representative today.

[Bustin Stones]

Every era had its marquis.
I remember watching the Jones boys run the Celtics' offense.
I remember the duels between Walt Frazier and Earl Monroe.
I remember Oscar Robertson going one on one on the clear outs.
And then there were Larry Bird and Magic Johnson doing things humans weren't supposed to be able to do.

[Half Smoke]

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Oscar Robertson, who btw was just a joy to watch, just about a perfect player, has commented on this re the poor D in the NBA and I agree with him

they don't get out on players shooting the 3 from way out. they're basically uncontested if they're very far out. maybe because it seems ridiculous to shoot from that far out - but they've shown they can hit from way out there - quite a few - so getting on them way out there is the obvious thing to do

Steph Curry is a great example - and he is a great player and I'm not in any way knocking him

but he rarely if ever gets challenged way out there - he doesn't even shoot a jumper - it's a one handed set shot from chest high - I've never seen it blocked - ridiculous

I believe UNC was coached to get on St. Peters from way out, which KY and Purdue didn't do, and I believe that was the main reason UNC handled them so easily


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[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by Half Smoke

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Oscar Robertson, who btw was just a joy to watch, just about a perfect player, has commented on this re the poor D in the NBA and I agree with him

they don't get out on players shooting the 3 from way out. they're basically uncontested if they're very far out. maybe because it seems ridiculous to shoot from that far out - but they've shown they can hit from way out there - quite a few - so getting on them way out there is the obvious thing to do

Steph Curry is a great example - and he is a great player and I'm not in any way knocking him

but he rarely if ever gets challenged way out there - he doesn't even shoot a jumper - it's a one handed set shot from chest high - I've never seen it blocked - ridiculous

I believe UNC was coached to get on St. Peters from way out, which KY and Purdue didn't do, and I believe that was the main reason UNC handled them so easily


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my theory is that if guys are going to shoot a bunch of 3s and a bunch of Steph Curry distance 3s, that if you had a freak athlete 6'9" guy, he could play 'linebacker' while 4 of his teammates played 4 on 5.

if you did it intelligently, you could block and alter shots and shade to analytics off the ball.

but the NBA doesn't want to exhaust their highlight stars, and they also are happy with the current perimeter stars.

-and it may not even work or be too hard to get an NBA team to learn it.

[Robert Fischer]

I was ok in the streetball, but these NBA guys are great.

growing up in Prince George's County Maryland in the '80s and '90s, basketball was big. It was a community thing. You go to the grocery store and people are stopping you and talking about basketball. 'Jordan' brand was booming, street basketball and hoop dreams were booming.

so many stories

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__________________
Preparation. Discipline. Patience. Decisiveness.

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Last edited by Robert Fischer; 03-31-2022 at 07:51 PM.