Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Thoroughbred Horse Racing Discussion > General Handicapping Discussion


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 23 votes, 3.30 average.
Old 12-15-2016, 11:15 PM   #226
EMD4ME
NoPoints4ME
 
EMD4ME's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 9,854
Sat Dec 17th, 2016 Race 6 Breakdown

1) My Golden Rose-wasn't in love with 1st start. Broke very clean, while 3 others were not. 3 back from the gate encouraged, then 6 back encouraged in nice inside spot off 2 very live FTS who were far ahead. Was outmoved by 2 runners in solid early part of race and then was caught for 3rd late by a bomb FTS. Did have solid action throughout. Changed leads well but was traffic free, didn't each much dirt (but that may not be an issue as route kickback is less forceful VS sprint kickback) and was outmoved by 3 horses in various parts of the race.

Tough part to swallow if you don't wager on this horse-Michelle Nevin is 3/13 with 2nd time starters stretching out from Sprint to Route on Dirt AND 11/34 with horses making their first dirt route overall ($4.73 ROI-I know ROI means nothing to 97% of PA posters ). Nevin is 8 for her LAST 16 overall. ON DUTROW TYPE FIRE !

Dam's kids are 6/23 with 83 Beyer Peak in Dirt Sprints BUT just 0/4 with a 61 Beyer peak in Dirt Routes. I always look at the sires of dam's kids and of note, this dam's 1 child was sired to Giacomo BUT that horse did better sprinting VS routing. I am concerned about the route with this runner as well, especially with her first out run. 10/1 ML

2) Double Cast-Clockers thought she had Turf Action early in her career. Been terrible on dirt, PASS.

3) Spirit of the dawn-Performed in the "performance part" of the race in her first start. (Very Good 1st quarter). Broke a hair inward, 1/2 back of gate leader (good gate speed) and was encouraged to get even and get a short lead. Then was "running" (not rating or jogging) for the most part in part of a 4 horse speed wall that set up the pocket and 2nd pocket winners (winner came back to lose in 2 stakes, 1 of them at a very short price). Can excuse that 1st effort as was fried a bit.

Is a half to a 7/27 Dirt Sprinter who made $450K plus BUT was just 0/7 routing with just $31,840 made routing.

Didn't see much size to this filly. The route concerns me visually. Will be the pace setter (barring a unique gate break with bumping, long load, chaos etc.). I will say, AND IT'S WAY TOO EARLY TO TELL after 1 race (especially with the rail post) but she (25% chance) could have a tendency (all tendencies start with 1) to break inward. That reduces the chance of the 1 horse.

Excellent WORKOUTS FOR 2nd start.

4) High End Lady-3rd foal from dam, 2 other children are not that classy. Kids 1/4 Dirt Routing (1 Dirt Route winning foal was by Lemon Drop Kid) with just a 49 beyer peak. 2 kids were mostly "unclassy".

Wasn't totally clued in as starter had to straighten her in gate (as field dispatched). Not much speed anyway. Ate a bit of kickback early but still had such little speed, not much kickback (fell too far behind nearest inside horse). Out of it in best part of race. Angled out into the slowest part of race, sucked up, going up and down a bit. Did not like gallop out to the right after wire.

5) Lockdown- Kids are 2/7 sprinting, 77B peak and $54,000 earned. BUT............... Kids are 8/15, $2,702,000 earned ROUTING on Dirt. (103B peak). The same sire and dam have 2 kids, 1 of which is Close Hatches. Also trained by Bill Mott...... Close Hatches obviously was best routing. Even the weaker of the 2 full siblings developed and ran his best race, ROUTING.

Was out clean in clear, not much kickback in debut, calmly stalking average pace in clear, forced way down to 2 path for far turn run, angled back out lane. Changed leads well, lugged in a bit and was just able to hold on to 2nd over runner who was uncomfortable and rank for at least 3/8. galloped out very good and in front as expected with this pedigree. Should improve in 2nd start. Especially at 8 1/2 F.

6) Done and Dusted- Nevin great in 1st starts at a route with runners but just 1/3 with FTS on Dirt as FTS. Not a common move for her. She is 8 for her last 16 OVERALL (See #1). Bred for Route Speed on the sire side. Dam had speed as well. Won in 1st dirt start (shipping from outside the US with an 83 Beyer at the FG) Kids are 10/59 but mostly Turf as the kids have 7 wins in 26 starts on Turf. Kids are 0/2 in Dirt Routes.

I would use this horse in pick 4's as a "B" type but I project this horse as a speed type who will have to deal with the fast Pletcher horse in gate #3, so tough to endorse as top pick, unless the 3 scratches.

7) Storm Cry- Kids are 1/24, that win Dirt Routing (By Distorded Humor). (82 Beyer peak, for kids Dirt Routing).

Was set up diagonally in gate for 1st start (on Turf). Not the proper placement. Was obviously off a beat slow. Moved up around foes with nice natural early speed. rated professionally 2 wide on the backstretch BUT was green with leads in the latter portion of the backstretch run. Using hard to keep up from the 1/2. Did not exhibit high turf leg action. Off replay, I don't see a huge turf hoof but can't be sure of that unless I'm in the paddock. Have the feeling this one might be a pace presence (like the 3 and 6) and tire in the last 1/2. At least in this stage of her life.

8) Thirstforthecup-Decent 1st out run, where she showed rally and decent action from the 5/16 (geared down from the 1/16) was followed up by a route that kind of bothers me.... That PARX race, to me, is THE definition of dressed up. Was not out quick from the outside post BUT, jock made AN AWESOME move to tuck immediately to the rail AND as many other jocks floated wide into the Clubhouse turn in a SLOW 1st quarter, this filly settled into a perfect pocket. The eventual winner, fought off 2 different mid races challenges to win while this filly sat chilly watching from the inside till the lane. Fractions were slow to 3/4 and the 4th quarter was solid. Yes, she finished solidly in the 4th quarter but she was outkicked by 2 blah runners in the 4th quarter, 1 of which was used almost the entire last 3/4's. She exhibited stamina, can be used on the bottom of supers, but is not for me.

9) China Ryder-Dam was best dirt sprinting (and rallying). Has the same look. Kids did well in almost every category but dirt routing. WO run not impressive. Was on wrong lead from gate till clubhouse turn. That worries me as in routes, you want a horse, especially young ones to have energy late. 2 back sprint was solid but was ZERO match for winner who totally outkicked her in Very Good last Q. Had solid trip chasing from a loose pocket. I keyed her under a David Donk 1ster I liked back in the spring at Belmont (off of her very good gallop out in her 1st start). Solid horse but not a horse I want to bet to win, especially in her 1st dirt route. B type in Pick 4's. Using under in sups, ex, tri but not my top selection. Regardless of any value.

10) Devine Union-Dam's kids 4/17 Dirt Sprinting and 0/4 Dirt Routing but this gal from Union Rags, looks to be a better router. Clicked from 3/1 to 5/2 in Spa debut, SHOCKER as was a Chad Brown FTS at the SPA. A bit bigger, so I could see why the 7F debut decision was made. Nice looking filly. Was out clean, hustled and showed the ability to FIND the pocket on the backstretch of the spa (Big difference between earning/finding a pocket VS. being given one). Came up the rail and then simply looked to be a "short" horse on energy in the lane. Quite confusing for a Chad Brown horse. However, when I watched her 2nd start, I saw talent and a different filly. I watched that race, thinking Lockdown would be better. My eye and gut kept going back to this filly. She was out well, immediately ate kickback from the bell, looked to be uncomfortable and rank for over 3/8's. She was jammed into the rail by the rider of Lockdown, ran again with the emergency brakes BUT then when they hit the lane, her talent showed. She came on better than Lockdown and finished better than Lockdown. When a horse is rank/uncomfortable for so long (3/8), you can excuse them spitting the bit out. She didn't AND ran home better. She galloped out solid and will like the seperation ( I see the 3, 6, 7 and 1 creating some seperation early-especially if the 3 is the rabbit for the dressed up 8 horse).

To me, this is a complete 2 horse race. 5 10 , 10 5. They will pick up the pieces at the 3/8 and 1 of them will win, IMHO. Could be a cold exacta.

Trips will decide this one, IMHO. PP 5 VS PP 10 is a big difference on the inner.....

In the pick 4, Pick 6 and rolling P3's, the 2 chalks are my A's. 5&10.

I have a push on the 5.



However, this is a pick the winner thread. After a ton of going back and forth, I will put aside the "push" and go with what I saw in their last race and select the 10. My fear is the 5 needed her first and will improve but I also think Devine needed her last for experience and she will improve as well.

10-5-rest I don't like. Cold exacta box 10 5.

Last edited by EMD4ME; 12-15-2016 at 11:23 PM.
EMD4ME is offline  
Old 12-15-2016, 11:16 PM   #227
NorCalGreg
Authorized Advertiser
 
NorCalGreg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Oakland, Ca
Posts: 7,953
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunForTheRoses
Uhh isn't Portland in the west? I don't see much pioneer spirit here:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.2912092
I'd have to go off-topic to explain why the "pioneers" haven't handed the country over....so I'll stay on subject.

That may one day come to be.....several Mega-Racing Domed Centers located in the major racing regions in the US, complete with air conditioned training facilities, shopping centers, hotels, big screens, etc. In other words---a destination resort.

Only problem I see with Racing joining the new modern world is---they can't even get together on California fair racing. This would require a very singular, Powerful Governing Leadership Body that doesn't exist, and maybe never will... until it's far too late.
NorCalGreg is offline  
Old 12-15-2016, 11:34 PM   #228
ReplayRandall
Buckle Up
 
ReplayRandall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,614
Quote:
Originally Posted by EMD4ME
Sat Dec 17th, 2016 Race 6 Breakdown
Devine Union- Was out clean, hustled and showed the ability to FIND the pocket on the backstretch of the spa (Big difference between earning/finding a pocket VS. being given one).

When a horse is rank/uncomfortable for so long (3/8), you can excuse them spitting the bit out. She didn't AND ran home better.
This focused analysis, is why those who watch replays CORRECTLY, can succeed in this game.....No crunching of numbers required....Nice summary, EMD...
ReplayRandall is offline  
Old 12-16-2016, 12:29 AM   #229
no breathalyzer
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReplayRandall
This focused analysis, is why those who watch replays CORRECTLY, can succeed in this game.....No crunching of numbers required....Nice summary, EMD...:ThmbUp:
I dido that.. nice write up EMD4ME...
no breathalyzer is offline  
Old 12-16-2016, 02:28 AM   #230
UnionRags
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 100
UnionRags is offline  
Old 12-16-2016, 03:04 AM   #231
lamboguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Boston+Ocala
Posts: 23,819
Quote:
Originally Posted by no breathalyzer
I dido that.. nice write up EMD4ME...
it was a scary great write up. i have never seen anyone break a race down better from top to bottom than this guy. he makes us all look like we are in the minor leagues compared to him and you can understand his write up.
lamboguy is offline  
Old 12-16-2016, 03:14 AM   #232
no breathalyzer
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamboguy
it was a scary great write up. i have never seen anyone break a race down better from top to bottom than this guy. he makes us all look like we are in the minor leagues compared to him and you can understand his write up.
I have to admit i was impressed
no breathalyzer is offline  
Old 12-16-2016, 06:01 AM   #233
Track Phantom
Registered User
 
Track Phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 2,752
I qualify a public handicapper the following ways:
* What kind of supporting detail do they back their selections with.
* How often do they "tout" low prices
* How often do they identify live priced runners somewhere in their top 3 or 4 selections
* How often do they fade the right low priced favorites

Clearly the rationale for their selections is what gets my attention, not the actual selections themselves. I believe if a public handicapper can give their audience a nugget or two in each race that isn't patently obvious they bring value (i.e. trainer wins 38% with this rider with a debut maiden claimer for this ownership or track was favoring the outside part of the track in this horse's last race and he was stuck on the rail the entire way, etc).

In addition, I would ask this: What is more valuable to someone getting a public handicapper's info? A 7-5 shot selected on top that wins or a 16-1 shot selected on top that runs 2nd? Many handicappers, Andy included, don't get enough credit for identifying those longer prices that hit the board.

Andy has the right balance of picking winners and offering professional, detailed rationale to back up his opinions. He's made mention of things I've missed that helped me even though the horse wasn't in the top 2 or 3 of his selections. It's on the person listening to glean the right things from the handicapper. If they're a good 'capper, you should take away some things of value to take into battle.
__________________
www.trackphantom.com
full card analysis
Track Phantom is offline  
Old 12-16-2016, 06:30 AM   #234
Track Phantom
Registered User
 
Track Phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 2,752
Quote:
Originally Posted by EMD4ME
Sat Dec 17th, 2016 Race 6 Breakdown

1) My Golden Rose-wasn't ...

4) High End Lady-3rd foal from dam, 2 other children are not that classy. Kids 1/4 Dirt Routing (1 Dirt Route winning foal was by Lemon Drop Kid) with just a 49 beyer peak. 2 kids were mostly "unclassy".

Wasn't totally clued in as starter had to straighten her in gate (as field dispatched). Not much speed anyway. Ate a bit of kickback early but still had such little speed, not much kickback (fell too far behind nearest inside horse). Out of it in best part of race. Angled out into the slowest part of race, sucked up, going up and down a bit. Did not like gallop out to the right after wire....


However, this is a pick the winner thread. After a ton of going back and forth, I will put aside the "push" and go with what I saw in their last race and select the 10. My fear is the 5 needed her first and will improve but I also think Devine needed her last for experience and she will improve as well.

10-5-rest I don't like. Cold exacta box 10 5.
I don't really have a solid lean in this race but think #4 HIGH END LADY is worth considering.

Trainer Anthony Dutrow is 33% (8 for 24) with 2nd timers in a MSW going sprint to route on the dirt. Of those 8 winners, only two of them had hit the board in their debut (and one that did hit the board, ran 3rd beaten 12 lengths at 3-5). Also interesting is that 5 of those 8 winners were 5-1 or higher in their debut. Like this one, those runners weren't meant to fire sprinting in the debut.

The dam is a half sister to QUEENIE BELLE, who won 6 of 22 for 605k. She was 4 for 11 routing and won a few graded stakes races in So. Cal.

Dutrow doesn't use Cancel much (just 1 for 17 with him) so that is discouraging. And it's not like this one has been burning up the training track, also discouraging.

Overall, don't care much for the race as I think it will end up being chalky. But, I would check the betting on #4 HIGH END LADY to see if she's more well-meant in this spot. I'd consider her if she appears well on the track in conjunction with some tote action.
__________________
www.trackphantom.com
full card analysis
Track Phantom is offline  
Old 12-16-2016, 07:26 AM   #235
NorCalGreg
Authorized Advertiser
 
NorCalGreg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Oakland, Ca
Posts: 7,953
A thousand word diatribe to end up with the obvious favorite in a maiden race, ....wouldn't an astute bettor just pass?

The MY GOLDEN ROSE stands out for a few reasons--price being one.

-switch to Franco
-top trainer Michelle Nevin
-throwing a profit 2yo's
-profit w/sprint-route
-huge profit first route

At 10-1 ML risk/value appears much greater here than with either of the short prices.....--small exacta reverse w// THIRST FOR THE CUP 6-1

Good luck with that EMD. Oh... and No Breathalyzer...I'd "Dido" too
NorCalGreg is offline  
Old 12-16-2016, 08:47 AM   #236
EMD4ME
NoPoints4ME
 
EMD4ME's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 9,854
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalGreg
A thousand word diatribe to end up with the obvious favorite in a maiden race, ....wouldn't an astute bettor just pass?

The MY GOLDEN ROSE stands out for a few reasons--price being one.

-switch to Franco
-top trainer Michelle Nevin
-throwing a profit 2yo's
-profit w/sprint-route
-huge profit first route

At 10-1 ML risk/value appears much greater here than with either of the short prices.....--small exacta reverse w// THIRST FOR THE CUP 6-1

Good luck with that EMD. Oh... and No Breathalyzer...I'd "Dido" too
Big trick with picks is knowing when to go with the chalk and when to bet against...

Biggest mistake by players is "thinking" they like or dislike a horse. I like to "know" I like/dislike a horse.

But you and I are different pal. You like having a PC do your thinking...

I like to do all the subtle and obvious information gathering and then let the most powerful tool man has, their brain, do the processing and evaluating .

To each his own

Last edited by EMD4ME; 12-16-2016 at 08:49 AM.
EMD4ME is offline  
Old 12-16-2016, 08:51 AM   #237
EMD4ME
NoPoints4ME
 
EMD4ME's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 9,854
Quote:
Originally Posted by Track Phantom
I don't really have a solid lean in this race but think #4 HIGH END LADY is worth considering.

Trainer Anthony Dutrow is 33% (8 for 24) with 2nd timers in a MSW going sprint to route on the dirt. Of those 8 winners, only two of them had hit the board in their debut (and one that did hit the board, ran 3rd beaten 12 lengths at 3-5). Also interesting is that 5 of those 8 winners were 5-1 or higher in their debut. Like this one, those runners weren't meant to fire sprinting in the debut.

The dam is a half sister to QUEENIE BELLE, who won 6 of 22 for 605k. She was 4 for 11 routing and won a few graded stakes races in So. Cal.

Dutrow doesn't use Cancel much (just 1 for 17 with him) so that is discouraging. And it's not like this one has been burning up the training track, also discouraging.

Overall, don't care much for the race as I think it will end up being chalky. But, I would check the betting on #4 HIGH END LADY to see if she's more well-meant in this spot. I'd consider her if she appears well on the track in conjunction with some tote action.
I can appreciate that. Besides what I saw, I simply don't think Anthony Dutrow of 2016 is the AD of old.

This is a great game we all love!
EMD4ME is offline  
Old 12-16-2016, 08:53 AM   #238
EMD4ME
NoPoints4ME
 
EMD4ME's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 9,854
Quote:
Originally Posted by Track Phantom
I qualify a public handicapper the following ways:
* What kind of supporting detail do they back their selections with.
* How often do they "tout" low prices
* How often do they identify live priced runners somewhere in their top 3 or 4 selections
* How often do they fade the right low priced favorites

Clearly the rationale for their selections is what gets my attention, not the actual selections themselves. I believe if a public handicapper can give their audience a nugget or two in each race that isn't patently obvious they bring value (i.e. trainer wins 38% with this rider with a debut maiden claimer for this ownership or track was favoring the outside part of the track in this horse's last race and he was stuck on the rail the entire way, etc).

In addition, I would ask this: What is more valuable to someone getting a public handicapper's info? A 7-5 shot selected on top that wins or a 16-1 shot selected on top that runs 2nd? Many handicappers, Andy included, don't get enough credit for identifying those longer prices that hit the board.

Andy has the right balance of picking winners and offering professional, detailed rationale to back up his opinions. He's made mention of things I've missed that helped me even though the horse wasn't in the top 2 or 3 of his selections. It's on the person listening to glean the right things from the handicapper. If they're a good 'capper, you should take away some things of value to take into battle.
I know NCG doesn't approve of this but Ditto !

Well said !
EMD4ME is offline  
Old 12-16-2016, 08:55 AM   #239
EMD4ME
NoPoints4ME
 
EMD4ME's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 9,854
Thankfully the letter L isn't NB's favorite letter.

Because if he threw an L in there , we'd have a problem !
EMD4ME is offline  
Old 12-16-2016, 08:57 AM   #240
EMD4ME
NoPoints4ME
 
EMD4ME's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 9,854
Replay Randall, Lamboguy, No Breathalyzer, thanks. It really wasn't anything special...

Just basic information gathering. I just made time to post it.

Good racing luck out there guys!
EMD4ME is offline  
Closed Thread





Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
» Current Polls
Wh deserves to be the favorite? (last 4 figures)
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.