View Poll Results: Who wins HOY? Accelerate or Justify?
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Accelerate wins HOY
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119 |
42.35% |
Justify wins HOY
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162 |
57.65% |
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12-16-2018, 08:43 AM
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#211
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
My standard for the injury is "would it have forced the retirement of a cheap claimer?". The answer to that is obviously "no", so Justify's injury should be considered a contrivance for HOTY voting.
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Why does it need to lead to retirement? Don't some injuries require extended periods of time off?
I've seen both champions and low-level claimers get 6-12 months off before returning to race.
Just because the connections chose to retire Justify doesn't mean he didn't require time off for his injury. Justify was retiring at the end of the year one way or the other.
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12-16-2018, 11:45 AM
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#212
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No!
Why does it need to lead to retirement? Don't some injuries require extended periods of time off?
I've seen both champions and low-level claimers get 6-12 months off before returning to race.
Just because the connections chose to retire Justify doesn't mean he didn't require time off for his injury. Justify was retiring at the end of the year one way or the other.
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If Justify were coming back at 4, he could of course win HOTY at 4.
The retirement for reasons that harm the sport (greed and the parasites who breed elite horses) basically disqualifies him from winning it at 3 when we had an accomplished older horse who won all the right races.
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12-16-2018, 11:48 AM
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#213
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
That is an impossible standard that no sane owner should or would ever follow.
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They can do whatever they want.
But racing should punish parasitic behavior, not reward it.
And also, there's only one standard for whether a horse is safe to run. If Justify's injury is considered "real", the sport should be banned. Seriously. Because we are running "injured" horses every day because they are cheap and we treat them as disposable.
Justify's injury is as fake as his Belmont win, for my purposes.
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12-16-2018, 11:55 AM
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#214
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
That is an impossible standard that no sane owner should or would ever follow.
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It's just beyond...
If anything, these so-called cheap claimers should be handled 'upward', not the other way around.
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12-16-2018, 01:06 PM
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#215
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elhelmete
It's just beyond...
If anything, these so-called cheap claimers should be handled 'upward', not the other way around.
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I would be fine with that.
The problem is in saying a cheap claimer's life is worthless whereas a strategic retirement of a 3 year old with the same injury by owners who are too chicken to risk a loss is treated as a humanitarian gesture to protect the horse.
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12-16-2018, 02:02 PM
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#216
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Audible is just the latest runner from Justify’s 3-year-old Kentucky Derby class who proved unable to defeat older rivals. Only one, Promises Fulfilled, has managed to do so — and that victory came sprinting, not against the type of competition where much could be gleaned when it comes to Justify’s talent relative to the other main Horse of the Year contender, Accelerate.
Pitting sophomores against fully developed elders is an expected mismatch. But without seeing Justify take them on himself, voters are forced to wonder what if when considering how the Triple Crown winner might have fared.
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https://www.horseracingnation.com/ne...o_Justify_123#
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12-16-2018, 02:14 PM
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#217
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
If the older division was so weak Justify's connections didn't need to duck it.
They ducked it because they are a bunch of parasitic chickens who wanted to protect their overrated colt's phony undefeated record of 5 for 5 against restricted competition plus a 6th win achieved by cheating in the Belmont.
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I laughed...
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12-16-2018, 03:00 PM
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#218
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,943
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What did Charismatic do after the Belmont? I remember him being in bad shape after that race.
I don't believe in hard rules for something like HOTY. You want it to be something that will bring attention to the game at minimum. There is a legitimate reason to support Accelerate, but Justify winning wouldn't be any kind of a crime to howl about, and would be more recognizable and accepted by casual fans, IMO. The last thing this industry should do is demean the 3yo classics. They are far and away the most recognizable races in the country. More people are aware of the Preakness than are aware of the BCC.
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12-16-2018, 03:08 PM
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#219
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The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,446
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One thing this thread has made clear to me - the Eclipse awards are meaningless.
__________________
Who does the Racing Form Detective like in this one?
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12-16-2018, 03:11 PM
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#220
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,943
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They are for the "club" bunch in the industry.
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12-16-2018, 05:20 PM
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#221
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
If Justify were coming back at 4, he could of course win HOTY at 4.
The retirement for reasons that harm the sport (greed and the parasites who breed elite horses) basically disqualifies him from winning it at 3 when we had an accomplished older horse who won all the right races.
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Greed and parasites? Unbelievable. What if you, your family or a close friend was fortunate to breed such a wonderful horse? Then after winning a Triple Crown you decided to take the hundreds of million dollars that retirement would bring? Does that make you a greedy parasite?
Most owners and breeders in this business lose money. Many continue to pour it in because of pure love for the horses and sport.
__________________
"Just because she's a hitter and a thief doesn't mean she's not a good woman in all the other places" Mayrose Prizzi
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12-16-2018, 05:23 PM
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#222
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
One thing this thread has made clear to me - the Eclipse awards are meaningless.
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The two I've been awarded mean the world to me.
__________________
"Just because she's a hitter and a thief doesn't mean she's not a good woman in all the other places" Mayrose Prizzi
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12-16-2018, 05:56 PM
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#223
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v j stauffer
Greed and parasites? Unbelievable. What if you, your family or a close friend was fortunate to breed such a wonderful horse? Then after winning a Triple Crown you decided to take the hundreds of million dollars that retirement would bring? Does that make you a greedy parasite?
Most owners and breeders in this business lose money. Many continue to pour it in because of pure love for the horses and sport.
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Vic, the Hills and the Taylors, upper middle class people, raced their stallion, one of the most valuable in history, as a 4 year old after winning the TC while undefeated and with a far better record than Justify, despite the fact he had real injuries, unlike Justify.
The ultra-wealthy folks at Winstar are parasites: they make a big profit and feel they owe the game nothing
Last edited by dilanesp; 12-16-2018 at 05:58 PM.
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12-16-2018, 06:00 PM
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#224
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
Vic, the Hills and the Taylors, upper middle class people, raced their stallion, one of the most valuable in history, as a 4 year old after winning the TC while undefeated and with a far better record than Justify, despite the fact he had real injuries, unlike Justify.
The ultra-wealthy folks at Winstar are parasites: they make a big profit and feel they owe the game nothing
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OK.
__________________
"Just because she's a hitter and a thief doesn't mean she's not a good woman in all the other places" Mayrose Prizzi
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12-16-2018, 07:35 PM
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#225
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
Vic, the Hills and the Taylors, upper middle class people, raced their stallion, one of the most valuable in history, as a 4 year old after winning the TC while undefeated and with a far better record than Justify, despite the fact he had real injuries, unlike Justify.
The ultra-wealthy folks at Winstar are parasites: they make a big profit and feel they owe the game nothing
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Coincidentally Seattle Slew won the HOY award as a 3yo Triple Crown winner despite not racing the last half of the year or facing his elders (like Justify).
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