Religion II

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Atheists, in scripture, are characterized as fools!!!

Ad hominem argument! I've pointed that out before.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Is a village missing an idiot?

Ad hominem!

Is that really the best you can do?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Being a Christian has nothing to do with a person's morality but everything to do with God's gifts that he gives to his elect -- including the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Plenty of Protestant denominations would disagree. I think the Roman Catholic Church would also disagree.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

And what does history teach us about atheism? You can point to despots who were atheists, e.g., Stalin. But there were also despots who were Christian, e.g., Hitler. To equate atheism with despotism is an instance of the Fallacy of Affirming the Consequent. Eagles are birds. Eagles can fly. Penguins and ostriches are birds, therefore penguins and ostriches can fly. It just isn't so.

What does what Franklin said have to do with religion? Franklin was a deist which, at that time, was probably about as close he dared come to admitting that he was an atheist.

Recall what Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is a very bad form or government. It's just that all the other forms are worse."

Oh, shit! This is as good as it gets. Do I think I can come up with something better. No, I cannot.

Hitler was no more a Christian than you are. Historical facts contradict your opinions about what is and isn't so about atheists governing countries.

Franklin was an architect of the form of government and he understood the type of society the form of government needed to exist.

The U.S. form of government is not a democracy, it is a democratic republic. Another fact you do not understand.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

Ad hominem!

Is that really the best you can do?

Only the best deserve the best. If Christ never existed than, by definition, a religion named after Him by his followers existed before Christ ever existed. What village did you wander away from?

[Show Me the Wire]

Benjamin Franklin's own words, per his autobiography.

I never was without some religious principles. I never doubted, for instance, the existence of the Deity; that he made the world, and governed it by his Providence; that the most acceptable service of God was the doing good to man; that our souls are immortal; and that all crime will be punished, and virtue rewarded, either here or hereafter.

Doesn't sound like a deist to me, as he confesses the world is governed by God's providence. And certainly not an atheist.

Franklin belonged to the Presbyterian denomination of Christianity.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Hitler was no more a Christian than you are.

Whether he was or was not a true believer we will never know. Nevertheless he claimed to be carrying out the will of God.

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Historical facts contradict your opinions about what is and isn't so about atheists governing countries.

Unsupported generality.

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Franklin was an architect of the form of government and he understood the type of society the form of government needed to exist.

The Greeks had a democracy and the Romans had a democratic republic. Those did not last. Franklin was musing about whether ours would last.

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

The U.S. form of government is not a democracy, it is a democratic republic. Another fact you do not understand.

I was quoting Churchill. Maybe he did not understand it.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

If Christ never existed than, by definition, a religion named after Him by his followers existed before Christ ever existed.

Correct. They named their religion after a person who never existed. Similar to the way the Mormons are named after a guy named Mormon who also never existed.

However, as a child I was taught (Southern Methodist) that the Christians did not name themselves. The term Christian (or Christ Ones) was applied to them by the Roman authorities. Whatever.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by Actor

Correct. They named their religion after a person who never existed. Similar to the way the Mormons are named after a guy named Mormon who also never existed.

However, as a child I was taught (Southern Methodist) that the Christians did not name themselves. The term Christian (or Christ Ones) was applied to them by the Roman authorities. Whatever.

It doesn’t do any good to refer to yourself or anyone else as an ‘atheist’ because that word is purely negative in connotation...it essentially functions as a carefully crafted SLUR word upon decent people who have any kind of sense left...we are more than just non-believers of spookcraft...

Monotheists realize that “atheist” is a SLUR and they delight in using it....part of the arsenal for character assasination.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

Monotheists realize that “atheist” is a SLUR and they delight in using it....part of the arsenal for character assasination.

That's just politically correct B.S. you're peddling.
Perhaps we shouldn't call horses horses either or goats goats?

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

That's just politically correct B.S. you're peddling.
Perhaps we shouldn't call horses horses either or goats goats?

Fine, then you can begin calling both Actor and myself ‘Reasonable Men” instead of “atheist”...

It is a positive, instead of a negative...

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

Whether he was or was not a true believer we will never know. Nevertheless he claimed to be carrying out the will of God.

Unsupported generality.

The Greeks had a democracy and the Romans had a democratic republic. Those did not last. Franklin was musing about whether ours would last.

I was quoting Churchill. Maybe he did not understand it.

Hitler and his inner circle were occultists. He was carrying out the will of the god they worshiped.

Much more than musing. Both Franklin and Adams they tell, in their own words, what is needed for the type of government they gave us to continue its existence.

Quoting Churchill in relation to my question to you about Franklin and the continuation of our form of government is nonsensical, unless you did not understand the actual form of our government.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

Fine, then you can begin calling both Actor and myself ‘Reasonable Men” instead of “atheist”...

It is a positive, instead of a negative...

Only in your head it is negative.
When people refer to atheists in conversations they are not being negative.
They are describing what atheists have been called for decades and decades.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Ad hominem argument! I've pointed that out before.

Hey...I'm only quoting scripture. Why are you so upset? Scripture "proves nothing", right? And I was referring to all atheists, not anyone in particular.

Grow thicker skin someday. If that day should ever arrive by a miracle of God, maybe you'll find your adulthood, too.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

No, sir...once again you are mistaken. Jesus also made that "outrageous proposition" to the man who had to bury his father first...and to that other man, who had to go back and "inform his family" of his decision to abandon them and follow Jesus. Jesus wasn't just referring to the money-worshiper when he made that "outrageous proposition"...that's just another one of your convenient excuses. But you'll have to save those excuses for someone else...because they don't wash with me.

To what "outrageous proposition, specifically, are you referring? I thought Jesus made one specific "outrageous proposition" to the rich guy? Didn't he tell the rich guy to liquidate all his assets and give them up to the poor? Or are you reading out of a different bible?