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Old 12-12-2018, 02:43 PM   #8716
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The thought that they may still have work to do in order to further purify themselves no longer occurs to them...because they have chosen to accept the "believe and you are in"
Very true and dangerous. Because now these "saved" people can do or say anything in the name of God with immunity. God has their backs. Which means they can condemn other religions and put people to death as they have throughout history. They can start wars in the name of God because God is "righteous" as they allegedly are now. The can do or say nothing wrong now because no matter how much they hurt others they are officially" saved and going to Heaven. Seat reserved.

Yet they forget the basics of what their teacher taught such as "love your enemies", "turn the other cheek" and "God is within". The "God is within" is completely out of the question for a Born Again Christian and it is why Evangelicals sought and changed the wording back in the late 70's to "God is in our midst". This allows their continued use of their Ego's to go unchecked as opposed to the check on one's Ego when "God is within" which requires growth.

I find Atheist much more humble and spiritual that those who believe they are "saved" because they have an inner sense of morality, whereas those who are religiously saved do not feel the need for one anymore. I never understood how U.S. Presidents could start wars and have "Men of God" at the WH giving their blessings for it. Now it is clear.

I never knew how people like Boxcar could talk about God being merciful, good and kind on the one hand but condemning his fellow PA members to Hell without even knowing them. But now I know.
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Old 12-12-2018, 03:03 PM   #8717
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Christianity developed the belief that the story of Isaac's binding was a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Christ, whose death and resurrection enabled the salvation and atonement for man from its sins, including original sin. There is a tradition that the site of Isaac's binding, Moriah, later became Jerusalem, the city of Jesus's future crucifixion.[109] The beliefs of most Christian denominations hinge upon the substitutionary atonement of the sacrifice of God the Son, which was necessary for salvation in the afterlife. According to Christian doctrine, each individual person on earth must participate in, and/or receive the benefits of, this divine human sacrifice for the atonement of their sins. Early Christian sources explicitly described this event as a sacrificial offering, with Christ in the role of both priest and human sacrifice, although starting with the Enlightenment, some writers, such as John Locke, have disputed the model of Jesus' death as a propitiatory sacrifice.[110]

René Girard has argued that the Gospels are a radical subversion of pagan notions of sacrifice. Instead of humans offering victims to angry deities (as is always the case with pagan sacrifice), Jesus, as the incarnate presence of God (YHWH), offers himself into the hands of violent humans to reveal what the Hebrew prophets meant when they said that "the Lord" (YHWH) rejects sacrifice and desires justice and mercy instead. The "self-sacrifice" of Christ is, therefore, a revelation that violent sacrifice has nothing to do with God. It is simply murder—which the story of Cain and Abel showed at the very dawn of civilisation (Cain is called "father of cities"). Saint Paul calls on Christians in his Letter to the Romans (12:1) to do the very opposite of conventional religious sacrifice: "offer your own bodies as a living sacrifice", he says, instead of the dead bodies of others. In other words, the only kind of "sacrifice" acceptable to God is to give one's life for others, which means to live one's life for others, even unto death, just as Jesus did. It is in that sense that Christ "sacrificed" himself; and in that sense that his "pure sacrifice" is celebrated in the sacrament of the eucharist.[citation needed] Wikipedia.
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Old 12-12-2018, 03:08 PM   #8718
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.........
I find Atheist much more humble and spiritual that those who believe they are "saved" because they have an inner sense of morality, whereas those who are religiously saved do not feel the need for one anymore. I never understood how U.S. Presidents could start wars and have "Men of God" at the WH giving their blessings for it. Now it is clear....
Atheist are more humble and spiritual. Tell that to all the suppressed people who lived under atheist despots. Even Actor, our own avowed atheist denies the existence of spirituality.

An uninformed and dangerous opinion.
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Old 12-12-2018, 03:31 PM   #8719
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Atheist are more humble and spiritual. Tell that to all the suppressed people who lived under atheist despots. Even Actor, our own avowed atheist denies the existence of spirituality.

An uninformed and dangerous opinion.
“Spirituality” is more than a little fuzzy, you simply must admit...

Since by definition “spirit” is defined as “Non-material” meaning Not-composed of elements, molecules, atoms, etc...

There is no way to “weigh” the spiritual on a scale...so while one may opine that “the spiritual” in some way has a reality...there is no one to one correspondence with anything “material” to verify that so-called “reality”...

One may call such things as prayer a “spiritual” “thing”...but even prayer requires thoughts, and thoughts are composed of electrical impulses and molecules moving around in physical brains...

...being kind and opening a door for someone may be considered a “spiritual” activity...but that still requires a material body and arms to perform...

...by definition the “spiritual” is NOT-OF-THIS-COSMOS...

...surely you can see why, many people have difficulty believing in such “non-things”....?

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Old 12-12-2018, 03:37 PM   #8720
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“Spirituality” is more than a little fuzzy, you simply must admit...

Since by definition “spirit” is defined as “Non-material” meaning Not-composed of elements, molecules, atoms, etc...

There is no way to “weigh” the spiritual on a scale...so while one may opine that “the spiritual” in some way has a reality...there is no one to one correspondence with anything “material” to verify that so-called “reality”...

One may call such things as prayer a “spiritual” “thing”...but even prayer requires thoughts, and thoughts are composed of electrical impulses and molecules moving around in physical brains...

...being kind and opening a door for someone may be considered a “spiritual” activity...but that still requires a material body and arms to perform...

...by definition the “spiritual” is NOT-OF-THIS-COSMOS...

...surely you can see why, many people have difficulty believing in such “non-things”....?
Thus the absurdity of opining that such a person who and why you describe as having difficulty believing in non-things is spiritual.
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Old 12-12-2018, 03:41 PM   #8721
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Thus the absurdity of opining that such a person who and why you describe as having difficulty believing in non-things is spiritual.
Huh..? Not sure I understand the point you are making...?
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Old 12-12-2018, 03:54 PM   #8722
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Huh..? Not sure I understand the point you are making...?
Read the post you quoted #8718 in response to post #8716. Your reasoning confirms the absurdity of calling an atheist spiritual, due to spirituality being a non-thing and atheist do not believe in non-things.
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Old 12-12-2018, 03:59 PM   #8723
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For example, My very own sister believes that she is surrounded by guardian Angels...She REALLY believes in both their invisible presence, and that she is definitely NOT mistaken about this...

...every time she starts to talk about them, I just kind of sigh and shrug it off...oh well, that is HER BELIEF and she has a right to her belief...and it really doesn’t do any harm, I guess...and it helps her get through her day with less anxiety...

...But as far as the REALITY of her belief that she is surrounded by Angels....? I am 100% sure that she is delusional...there simply are NO ANGELS around her, nor anywhere else for that matter...

Now one may say that this all boils down to a difference of opinion, but at some point I simply must believe in my own INTELLIGENCE in this matter...

Now if you are the kind of person who thinks Angels are real, then I guess we are talking about 2 different types of INTELLIGENCES that will never see eye to eye with respect to Angels, anyway...

So I sigh and shrug regarding her Angels, and she sighs and shrugs because, of course, HOW COULD I NOT believe in Angels...?
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Old 12-12-2018, 04:00 PM   #8724
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There are millions of believers who feel just as YOU do right now. They have accepted God as their personal savior, and they believe that Jesus's blood has cleansed them of their sins. The thought that they may still have work to do in order to further purify themselves no longer occurs to them...because they have chosen to accept the "believe and you are in" version of heaven that the Church is in the business of manufacturing. These deluded people are convinced that they are, and will forever be, "saved"...and that their already-made reservations to the heavenly life can never be revoked. "The path to the heavenly life is narrow, and the pedestrians upon it are few"...Jesus has famously declared. And yet...these millions of people are all preparing for heaven just the same.

This is what happens when an authentic spiritual teaching is "organized"...and then marketed for mass consumption.

"Leave everything behind and follow me"...Jesus would tell those who would inquire about the heavenly life. How could the masses become interested in such an outrageous proposition, and, how could a multi-billion dollar industry be built upon such a startling demand? If the command still remained in its "Leave everything behind and follow me" form...then the path to heaven would indeed be narrow... and the pedestrians would indeed be few. But if we alter this to its current "believe and you are in" version...then the path becomes as wide as the widest freeway...and the pedestrians upon it number in the many millions.

In business, they call this..."innovative marketing"
I think you meant to say (but if not, you should have said), "there are millions of professing believers...". There is genuine faith and there is spurious faith.

The "outrageous proposition" applied to only those whose idol is money, as was the rich man's case. It was the self-righteous, self-deceived rich man who was deluded and thought he had a mortal lock on the kingdom of heaven. But Jesus's words to him must have been like the ground shaking beneath his feet.

And if you think that was an "outrageous proposition", what do you make of these words by Jesus:

Matt 5:29-31
29 "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell.
NASB

It's very clear to me that you have no concept of repentance; for faith and repentance are different sides of the same coin! One is not a Christian if his life is not characterized by faith and repentance.

Furthermore, you have zero understanding of the Doctrines of Grace. While all sinners are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8,9) that gift of faith never comes alone. When the Gospel (Word of God) takes root in the "soil" of a person's regenerated heart, that person will bear fruit in the kingdom of God, and that person will no longer be enslaved to his/her sinful nature (Rom 8:2). All of this is the work of God's sovereign grace in the person's heart. The fact of the matter is that God loves his adopted children so much, he will not leave them to wallow in their former sinful, corrupt nature. Read the Parable of the [b]Four Soils[/i] carefully because Jesus lays all this out quite beautifully -- and he was crystal clear!

Luke 8:4-15
4 And when a great multitude were coming together, and those from the various cities were journeying to Him, He spoke by way of a parable: 5 "The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road; and it was trampled under foot, and the birds of the air ate it up. 6 "And other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7 "And other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it, and choked it out. 8 "And other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great." As He said these things, He would call out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

9 And His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable might be. 10 And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, in order that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand. 11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. 12 "And those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 "And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 "And the seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 "And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

NASB

And if you're wondering about the "good soil" and how a person with a sinful nature can possibly have an "honest and good heart", I would suggest you read the New Covenant promise in Ezek 36:26-28.
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Old 12-12-2018, 04:11 PM   #8725
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Very true and dangerous. Because now these "saved" people can do or say anything in the name of God with immunity. God has their backs. Which means they can condemn other religions and put people to death as they have throughout history. They can start wars in the name of God because God is "righteous" as they allegedly are now. The can do or say nothing wrong now because no matter how much they hurt others they are officially" saved and going to Heaven. Seat reserved.

Yet they forget the basics of what their teacher taught such as "love your enemies", "turn the other cheek" and "God is within". The "God is within" is completely out of the question for a Born Again Christian and it is why Evangelicals sought and changed the wording back in the late 70's to "God is in our midst". This allows their continued use of their Ego's to go unchecked as opposed to the check on one's Ego when "God is within" which requires growth.

I find Atheist much more humble and spiritual that those who believe they are "saved" because they have an inner sense of morality, whereas those who are religiously saved do not feel the need for one anymore. I never understood how U.S. Presidents could start wars and have "Men of God" at the WH giving their blessings for it. Now it is clear.

I never knew how people like Boxcar could talk about God being merciful, good and kind on the one hand but condemning his fellow PA members to Hell without even knowing them. But now I know.
Very, very strange post coming from a "believer". (What's the matter: Jesus no longer your "best friend"?) If atheists are "much more humble and spiritual" than you are (since you claime to be a "believer"), then you obviously do not have the witness of the Holy Spirit who is given by Jesus to all all God's people. If you had the gift of the Holy Spirit within you and knew that, you could never write what you just did.

Rom 8:16-17
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him.
NASB

Atheists, in scripture, are characterized as fools!!!

Being a Christian has nothing to do with a person's morality but everything to do with God's gifts that he gives to his elect -- including the gift of the Holy Spirit.
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Old 12-12-2018, 04:16 PM   #8726
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The "outrageous proposition" applied to only those whose idol is money, as was the rich man's case. It was the self-righteous, self-deceived rich man who was deluded and thought he had a mortal lock on the kingdom of heaven. But Jesus's words to him must have been like the ground shaking beneath his feet.
No, sir...once again you are mistaken. Jesus also made that "outrageous proposition" to the man who had to bury his father first...and to that other man, who had to go back and "inform his family" of his decision to abandon them and follow Jesus. Jesus wasn't just referring to the money-worshiper when he made that "outrageous proposition"...that's just another one of your convenient excuses. But you'll have to save those excuses for someone else...because they don't wash with me.
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Old 12-12-2018, 05:46 PM   #8727
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If you what you say is true, then this implies that the scriptures (or at least the NT) emanated from evil minds. Can you show us, therefore, an example or two of downright evil teachings in the NT?
  • Women should keep silent.
  • Slavery is OK.
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Old 12-12-2018, 06:02 PM   #8728
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Try again to justify your claim Christianity existed before Christ.
That's not my claim. My claim is
  • Christianity existed 550 B.C.E.
  • Christ never existed. He's a mythical figure.
Read The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty.

You can download The Epistle of Barnabas from Project Gutenberg.
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Old 12-12-2018, 06:23 PM   #8729
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Only if you ignore history.
And what does history teach us about atheism? You can point to despots who were atheists, e.g., Stalin. But there were also despots who were Christian, e.g., Hitler. To equate atheism with despotism is an instance of the Fallacy of Affirming the Consequent. Eagles are birds. Eagles can fly. Penguins and ostriches are birds, therefore penguins and ostriches can fly. It just isn't so.

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It is apparent from your answer, you never did figure out why the founding Father Benjamin Franklin made the comment about the form of government being a republic and seeing how long we, the people, can keep such a government.
What does what Franklin said have to do with religion? Franklin was a deist which, at that time, was probably about as close he dared come to admitting that he was an atheist.

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Maybe because you don't care about keeping a democratic republic form of government and favor another kind?
Recall what Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is a very bad form or government. It's just that all the other forms are worse."

Oh, shit! This is as good as it gets. Do I think I can come up with something better. No, I cannot.
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Old 12-12-2018, 06:26 PM   #8730
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That's not my claim. My claim is
  • Christianity existed 550 B.C.E.
  • Christ never existed. He's a mythical figure.
Read The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty.

You can download The Epistle of Barnabas from Project Gutenberg.
Is a village missing an idiot?
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