Non-Lasix Users Get Weight Break In The Pegasus

[dilanesp]

In handicap races, trainers dicker with racing secretaries over one or two pounds. With bug boys, they abandon them when they lose the weight break.


So obviously trainers value weight as a handicapping factor. But they value the doping and masking effect of Lasix more.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

In handicap races, trainers dicker with racing secretaries over one or two pounds. With bug boys, they abandon them when they lose the weight break.


So obviously trainers value weight as a handicapping factor. But they value the doping and masking effect of Lasix more.

You must have overslept the day they taught logic.

Wow.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

This is always a LULZ moment...the whole "glad you're in the pools" comment...as if Sammy is extracting GOBS of money from the pools DAILY from RUBES like us...

lulz

When spelled in all lowercase, lulz primarily stands for "laughs" or "laughing;" when capitalized, Lulz refers to members of the media-savvy hacking collective Lulz Security, or LulzSec who publicly announced in 2011 that they had successfully hacked the websites of the CIA, the U.S. Senate, Britain's Serious Organized Crime Agency, Sony, PBS, and other high-profile targets. And while LulzSec came to embrace politically motivated hacking, they also hacked sites and disseminated stolen information just for the "lulz," or laughs.

Just an FYI. I keep seeing people trying to up their cool factor by saying LULZ instead of LOL, and they’re doing it all wrong. Which is an lulz.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

These sorts of hypocrisy arguments don't do much for me.


It's like saying to the politician who supports campaign finance reform, "why are you taking those big donations, you hypocrite!". As long as the rules permit practically unlimited use of raceday Lasix as a doping agent and performance enhancer, you have to give it to your horse, no matter how you feel about it.

I am on the fence about Lasix, and mostly will argue that it’s about 100th on the list of top 100 problems in the sport, but I know of no trainer who thinks Lasix is a masking agent. Not when given as it is today.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

In handicap races, trainers dicker with racing secretaries over one or two pounds. With bug boys, they abandon them when they lose the weight break.


So obviously trainers value weight as a handicapping factor. But they value the doping and masking effect of Lasix more.

As someone else said, the weights discussed aren’t equivalent. Weight that is on your back, not part of your body, and moves and shifts, is far different than peeing out all your water weight.

There are genuine concerns about bleeding. Let’s not pretend that they don’t use it in training in Europe, because they do. It’s about level playing fields, and doing other things to control bleeding whether it’s through the use of other meds and herbs or removing their water.

I believe that bleeding is inherent in the Tb now, thanks to Bartlett’s Childers (aka Bleeding Childers), so reversing it after so long may be impossible.

[chadk66]

With today’s testing ability Lasix isn’t going to mask anything. It doesn’t enhance performance it only ensures horses will be able to run to its god given ability assuming all other possible performance reducers don’t naturally hinder. Bleeding is traumatic to horses mentally. I’ve seen horses that bled that never run the same again down the stretch. You can scope em all you want and you don’t find anything. They just pack it in at the spot they experienced the blended. They associate the deeper breathing at that point with the trauma they experienced. Horses have a hell of a memory for bad experiences. And as a trainer I never rode an apprentice for a five pound weight break.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by the little guy

You must have overslept the day they taught logic.

Wow.

Andy, at this point you need to stop making snarky comments and insults that contribute nothing.


If you think Lasix is a great thing for racing, defend it. With an argument. Show us your superior knowledge and insider information, and tell us what the issue is really about and why we are all getting it wrong.


But if you don't want to do that, your snark is empty, meaningless, and frankly makes YOU look dumb. Like you aren't actually capable of defending your belief and would prefer to just insult other people.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

As someone else said, the weights discussed aren’t equivalent. Weight that is on your back, not part of your body, and moves and shifts, is far different than peeing out all your water weight.

There are genuine concerns about bleeding. Let’s not pretend that they don’t use it in training in Europe, because they do. It’s about level playing fields, and doing other things to control bleeding whether it’s through the use of other meds and herbs or removing their water.

I believe that bleeding is inherent in the Tb now, thanks to Bartlett’s Childers (aka Bleeding Childers), so reversing it after so long may be impossible.

No, I was talking about the Lasix weight break in the Pegasus. If trainers negotiate with the racing secretary over 3 pounds in a handicap race but won't take 7 to not run on Lasix, that says a lot about Lasix.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

I am on the fence about Lasix, and mostly will argue that it’s about 100th on the list of top 100 problems in the sport, but I know of no trainer who thinks Lasix is a masking agent. Not when given as it is today.

Here's the thing about this. The people who actually know something about drug testing, the World Anti-Doping Agency, consider it a masking agent. And they have a record of honesty, whereas horsemen have a record of dishonesty, of manipulating form of horses, of doping horses under the table, etc.


So I trust WADA and think that horsemen are almost certainly never going to admit the masking that they are doing.

[bobphilo]

It is medically unethical to allow the almost universal use of a potent medication that had never been proven safe and effective by scientific studies for the condition that it is allegedly treating. The FDA uses these standards to protect human patients. Apparently racing has a more casual concern for the health of its horses with the promiscuous use of Lasix, valuing winning over safety.

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Here's the thing about this. The people who actually know something about drug testing, the World Anti-Doping Agency, consider it a masking agent. And they have a record of honesty, whereas horsemen have a record of dishonesty, of manipulating form of horses, of doping horses under the table, etc.


So I trust WADA and think that horsemen are almost certainly never going to admit the masking that they are doing.

so what drugs does it supposedly mask?

[cj]

Originally Posted by chadk66

With today’s testing ability Lasix isn’t going to mask anything. It doesn’t enhance performance it only ensures horses will be able to run to its god given ability assuming all other possible performance reducers don’t naturally hinder. Bleeding is traumatic to horses mentally. I’ve seen horses that bled that never run the same again down the stretch. You can scope em all you want and you don’t find anything. They just pack it in at the spot they experienced the blended. They associate the deeper breathing at that point with the trauma they experienced. Horses have a hell of a memory for bad experiences. And as a trainer I never rode an apprentice for a five pound weight break.

I agree it doesn't really mask anything any longer, but I'm no expert.

However, it does more than "ensures horses will be able to run to its god given ability". The loss of body weight clearly enables the horses to run faster than without the drug. If it didn't, all the other horses that don't really need Lasix wouldn't be forced to use it to compete. They have to so as to maintain a level playing field.

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by cj

I agree it doesn't really mask anything any longer, but I'm no expert.

However, it does more than "ensures horses will be able to run to its god given ability". The loss of body weight clearly enables the horses to run faster than without the drug. If it didn't, all the other horses that don't really need Lasix wouldn't be forced to use it to compete. They have to so as to maintain a level playing field.

thats a total farce in reality. It’s a feel good thing actually pushed by owners based on feelings and not reality. If you knew how much a horses weight fluctuates on a daily basis you’d shit yourself. The weight loss from fluid loss is trivial. And as I explained before there is a huge difference between weight within and evenly distributed throughout the horse than sitting On top of a horse moving around. This can be really hard to understand unless you’ve ridden a lot of horse. And not all horses loose a lot of weight from lasix. It varies greatly. A big influencer is how hydrated the horse is to begin with. I mentioned above that several of my horses ran as good or better off lasix than on it. I used to take horses back and forth from the U.S. to Canada where they couldn’t use lasix. Those horses always performed as good or better up there. There are so many old wives tale on lasix that it’s kind of comical. One could make as big of argument that the horse won’t run as well due to the dehydration.

[cj]

Originally Posted by chadk66

thats a total farce in reality. It’s a feel good thing actually pushed by owners based on feelings and not reality. If you knew how much a horses weight fluctuates on a daily basis you’d shit yourself. The weight loss from fluid loss is trivial. And as I explained before there is a huge difference between weight within and evenly distributed throughout the horse than sitting On top of a horse moving around. This can be really hard to understand unless you’ve ridden a lot of horse. And not all horses loose a lot of weight from lasix. It varies greatly. A big influencer is how hydrated the horse is to begin with. I mentioned above that several of my horses ran as good or better off lasix than on it. I used to take horses back and forth from the U.S. to Canada where they couldn’t use lasix. Those horses always performed as good or better up there. There are so many old wives tale on lasix that it’s kind of comical. One could make as big of argument that the horse won’t run as well due to the dehydration.

I've never said the weight change is the same as a jockey weight. I actually already said the same thing early in the thread, they aren't the same. But to pretend that Lasix doesn't give an advantage over horses that aren't using it goes against every study I've ever seen or done myself.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by chadk66

The weight loss from fluid loss is trivial.

Horses receiving lasix and have feed and water withheld afterward lose anywhere from 3 to 4% body weight. This has been documented in scientific studies.

A 3 to 4% reduction in load carriage means that there is also a 3 to 4% reduction in the energy requirement for the horse to reach a given speed (as compared to horses not receiving lasix). Some would say that is a significant advantage.

And as I explained before there is a huge difference between weight within and evenly distributed throughout the horse than sitting On top of a horse moving around.

This is a non-starter (no pun intended). While additional "dead" weight in the saddle might be considered worse than added body weight, horses that receive lasix are not asked to carry more weight than their non-lasix counterparts.