Owner impact and stats - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

CBYRacer · 07-08-2020, 10:12 AM

Hope you all are having a good day.

I would appreciate your thoughts on how important owners are (independent of other factors such as trainer, horse ability, etc.) to racing outcomes and whether there are good databases that have owner stats (win %, earnings, graded stakes wins, etc.). Is it worth tracking these stats and when do they come in most handy (e.g., a race where there's a big outfit vs. a bunch of smaller barns)?

Thanks!

green80 · 07-08-2020, 11:22 AM

some owners seem to do a better job and win at a higher rate than others. Some owners don't keep poor performers very long. Just another factor to look at.

classhandicapper · 07-08-2020, 12:15 PM

I'd probably focus on owners off the claim and with first time starters and other very lightly raced horses.

green80 · 07-08-2020, 01:03 PM

Look at owner earnings per start. If they don't average $1000 per start they are losing money.

jk3521 · 07-08-2020, 01:10 PM

https://www.equibase.com/stats/View....=year&tb=horse

CBYRacer · 07-10-2020, 01:13 AM

Thanks all for the good insights. I appreciate it!

flatstats · 07-10-2020, 08:11 PM

Owners need to be split into groups.

At the top end you have the uber rich owners such as

Kirsten Rausing
The Queen
John Magnier
Niarchos and family
various Sheikhs

then there are rich owners who are out to impress

Followed by owners with more money than sense

Syndicates

Owners who come in and go straight out of the game

Owners in for the the gamble

Owners in it to cheat at the game

Once you have worked out what group an owner is in you can study them.

---

In the UK one thing is perfectly clear: It is extremely unlikely you will profit from owning horses. The prize money here is poor compared to other major nations and training fees, vets bills, racing admin are just too much of cost to recover from paltry prize money.

But here in the UK we have a healthy betting market with bookmaker's odds (fixed prices and starting prices), Tote and exchanges. These mediums make owning horses attractive because of the closed knowledge an owner can have with the trainer and the jockey.

Onesome · 07-10-2020, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatstats

Owners need to be split into groups.

At the top end you have the uber rich owners such as

Kirsten Rausing
The Queen
John Magnier
Niarchos and family
various Sheikhs

then there are rich owners who are out to impress

Followed by owners with more money than sense

Syndicates

Owners who come in and go straight out of the game

Owners in for the the gamble

Owners in it to cheat at the game

Once you have worked out what group an owner is in you can study them.

---

In the UK one thing is perfectly clear: It is extremely unlikely you will profit from owning horses. The prize money here is poor compared to other major nations and training fees, vets bills, racing admin are just too much of cost to recover from paltry prize money.

But here in the UK we have a healthy betting market with bookmaker's odds (fixed prices and starting prices), Tote and exchanges. These mediums make owning horses attractive because of the closed knowledge an owner can have with the trainer and the jockey.

Wasn't 3 or 4 years ago a bunch of people from one trainers yard made a killing during the Cheltenham festival by parlaying a bunch of their longshots together that all obviously won at nice prices? Not sure of the name, just remember the maroon silks with the big star on front.

mountainman · 07-11-2020, 12:10 AM

A critically under-valued piece of the puzzle. Lots of owners actually train their own horses, employing the conditioner of record to act merely as a front. There can be various reasons for such deception, but the success of runners so listed ALWAYS differs (for better or worse) from the trainer's other stock.

Also, some owners simply spend more and make smarter buys, which distinguishes them from their trainer's other clients.

And at any track, rumors circulate about certain owners with pipelines to "helpful" meds. While unable to confirm-or debunk- that notion, I can say that, indisputably, certain owners do have transformative effect on whatever trainers they employ.

classhandicapper · 07-11-2020, 10:47 AM

Quote:

And at any track, rumors circulate about certain owners with pipelines to "helpful" meds. While unable to confirm-or debunk- that notion, I can say that, indisputably, certain owners do have transformative effect on whatever trainers they employ.

That's an interesting angle.

usfgeology · 07-11-2020, 11:27 PM

I’ve long suspected that the trainers were the ones with the access to the meds and only certain ownership groups got the good stuff...never thought about it the other way

green80 · 07-12-2020, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

A critically under-valued piece of the puzzle. Lots of owners actually train their own horses, employing the conditioner of record to act merely as a front. There can be various reasons for such deception, but the success of runners so listed ALWAYS differs (for better or worse) from the trainer's other stock.

Also, some owners simply spend more and make smarter buys, which distinguishes them from their trainer's other clients.

And at any track, rumors circulate about certain owners with pipelines to "helpful" meds. While unable to confirm-or debunk- that notion, I can say that, indisputably, certain owners do have transformative effect on whatever trainers they employ.

This is very true. Around here I know quite a few owners that train their own horses off track and take them to the track to run under a trainers name. Racing officials usually look the other way if the owner has one or two horses but it he has a large string of horses they will tell him to get a trainers license.

CBYRacer · 07-12-2020, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by green80

This is very true. Around here I know quite a few owners that train their own horses off track and take them to the track to run under a trainers name. Racing officials usually look the other way if the owner has one or two horses but it he has a large string of horses they will tell him to get a trainers license.

Interesting.

Is it possible for an average handicapper to be adept at identifying these situations? Feels like there's a lot that happens outside of the past performances that would be great to have insight into.

mountainman · 07-13-2020, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBYRacer

Interesting.

Is it possible for an average handicapper to be adept at identifying these situations? Feels like there's a lot that happens outside of the past performances that would be great to have insight into.

I give as much of this out on the air as i think i can get away with. But pulling back these kind of curtains almost always entails risk. And will never result in warm hugs from the participants. Horsemen do not like having their business put out there.

CBYRacer · 07-13-2020, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I give as much of this out on the air as i think i can get away with. But pulling back these kind of curtains almost always entails risk. And will never result in warm hugs from the participants. Horsemen do not like having their business put out there.

Thanks. Kind of what I figured.