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Old 09-18-2018, 06:34 PM   #8461
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What part of immutable, which is attribute of God, don't you get? The entire universe is mutable but God is not.

And if you're correct, and we can't have a "real God" whose creations (creatures?) can do what the creator cannot, then your God is a sinner! Humans cannot not sin; whereas God cannot sin.
Yes God does not change (immutable) but what you don't get is that his ability to change is part of his immutability.

His essence of love does not change but his love takes many forms of which you fail to recognize because you have ridgid concepts of what God can and cannot do.


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Plus God gives his people understanding of HIS Word. Why would he inspire his prophets and apostles to write his Word if he doesn't provide divine empowerment for his people to understand?
It is your prerogative to believe every word in the Bible literally. .

I have nothing against your literal interpretation of the Bible except that it is flawed big time because it involves INTERPRETATION which is NOT from God. It is from you, your ego, and/or your political/social disposition which is individually biased based on one's geographical location and other factors.

This is where there is major errors such as the Blind men trying to describe the elephant. In this case it is blind men trying to describe GOD and looking like fools.
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:04 PM   #8462
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Yes God does not change (immutable) but what you don't get is that his ability to change is part of his immutability.
Since God is immutable he cannot change. The law of logic known as the Law of Excluded Middle applies here. There is no middle ground (third option). Stated differently, either a proposition is true or its antithesis is.

It has been said by some theologians that this one particular attribute of God is the most hated and despised of them all by infidels; for in a sense it is the attribute that defines all the others.

In case you want to get up to speed on it:

https://www.gotquestions.org/immutability-God.html

But if not, go hug a giant Saguaros cactus plant and feel the love.
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:51 PM   #8463
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How can a deity be both "immutable"...and "omnipotent"?
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:47 PM   #8464
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Since God is immutable he cannot change.
You do not understand the Biblical concept of "God does not change". It is referring to the essence of God, not parameters of what God can and cannot do. The essence of God is pure and divine love and thank God that never changes.

As far as what God purportedly does in the Bible, he certainly changes his mind a lot. Far from "immutable". For example:

Exodus 32:14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Samuel 2:30 “Therefore the Lord, the God of Israel, declares: ‘I promised that members of your family would minister before me forever.’ But now the Lord declares: ‘Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.

1 Chronicles 21:15 And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But as the angel was doing so, the Lord saw it and relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.”

Amos 7:4-6 This is what the Sovereign Lord showed me: The Sovereign Lord was calling for judgment by fire; it dried up the great deep and devoured the land. 5 Then I cried out, “Sovereign Lord, I beg you, stop! How can Jacob survive? He is so small!”

6 So the Lord relented.


And on and on.
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Old 09-19-2018, 12:53 AM   #8465
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God always gives the ignorant enough rope with which to hang themselves.
I guess you neck must ache a great deal.
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Old 09-19-2018, 09:31 AM   #8466
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You do not understand the Biblical concept of "God does not change". It is referring to the essence of God, not parameters of what God can and cannot do. The essence of God is pure and divine love and thank God that never changes.

As far as what God purportedly does in the Bible, he certainly changes his mind a lot. Far from "immutable". For example:

Exodus 32:14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Samuel 2:30 “Therefore the Lord, the God of Israel, declares: ‘I promised that members of your family would minister before me forever.’ But now the Lord declares: ‘Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.

1 Chronicles 21:15 And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But as the angel was doing so, the Lord saw it and relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.”

Amos 7:4-6 This is what the Sovereign Lord showed me: The Sovereign Lord was calling for judgment by fire; it dried up the great deep and devoured the land. 5 Then I cried out, “Sovereign Lord, I beg you, stop! How can Jacob survive? He is so small!”

6 So the Lord relented.


And on and on.
I don't understand? What you don't understand is that God's blessing to Israel under the Old Covenant (i.e. Law of Moses) was conditioned upon Israel's obedience. Therefore, God could "change" his mind in accordance with that condition, anthropomorphically speaking, of course; for God knew in eternity when and how his people would disobey and when they would obey. Have you so soon forgotten another one his attributes -- omniscience?

But when you say that God is the universe and the universe is God, you are making a statement about his very essence; and by your own admission you have just confessed that his immutability is connected to all things connected to his essence. And an integral part of that essence is that God is not a tangible, physical entity. Has not your "best friend" taught us the following?

John 4:24a
24 "God IS spirit...
NASB

And Paul teaches:

1 Tim 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
NASB

Since God is pure spirit and, therefore, by definition invisible, then He cannot be the universe nor can the universe be Him.
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Old 09-19-2018, 09:34 AM   #8467
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I guess you neck must ache a great deal.
Only when God puts insufferable fools like yourself in my path; but even then He is gracious, for he has blessed me with a great chiropractor.
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Old 09-19-2018, 10:05 AM   #8468
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Only when God puts insufferable fools like yourself in my path; but even then He is gracious, for he has blessed me with a great chiropractor.
Chiropractors have poor records with hanging victims, unless your chiropractor can quack like a duck.

Maybe you should ask if constantly insulting others who disagree with you, and who you can not answer intelligently, is curable by some sort of quack-like treatment?
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Old 09-19-2018, 10:46 AM   #8469
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What Happened After the Lame Man was Healed?

Let's pick the story up in Acts where we left off yesterday.

By way of a quick review, we saw that about 3,000 [mostly] Hellenistic Jews were converted after hearing Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost.

Very shortly after that, Peter and John heal a lame man from birth in the temple courtyard, and this great miracle really got the big crowd excited and caused no small stir. After Peter preached the gospel to this crowd, as well, we are told that at least 5,000 men alone repented and believed his message.

But the big commotion and the gospel message itself "greatly disturbed" the priests and Sadducees, so they had the temple guard arrest our dynamic duo itinerant evangelists. So, let's pick up from this point to see what happened after they were arrested.

Acts 4:5 tells us that the next day, Peter and John were brought before the grand, august religious body called the Sanhedrin to give an account for what happened the previous day. After they recounted what took place, they ordered the two out of the room so that this not-so merry band of religious leaders could confer among themselves. Acts 4 tells us, bascially, that they found themselves between a rock and hard place.

Acts 4:13-14
13 Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John, and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were marveling, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. 14 And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they had nothing to say in reply.
NASB

Wow! What ya know? They were were speechless. There they had standing before them in flesh and bone and blood the healed lame man. A real man. And a man who was really healed. So, the leaders at this point weren't faced with fake news allegories or fictional stories; they had a genuine problem on their hands, and they were at a loss to know what explanation they could give the people for this real man who was really healed.

In fact, this miracle so shook them up and also excited the crowd in a favorable way toward Peter and John -- and God, for they gave him glory for a great miracle -- so much so that the Sanhedrin could not even decide how to punish the two apostles. Punish them!? Punish them for what: Doing a good deed by healing a lame man from birth? So, what did they decide?

Acts 4:15-18
15 But when they had ordered them to go aside out of the Council, they began to confer with one another, 16 saying, "What shall we do with these men? For the fact that a noteworthy miracle has taken place through them is apparent to all who live in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17 "But in order that it may not spread any further among the people, let us warn them to speak no more to any man in this name."
NASB

Now...one of the very big reasons the people were all excited and praising God was not only because of the greatness of the miracle itself, but the man was more than 40 years old (v.22). This is no small detail because this means this previously lame beggar would have been very well known by every one who frequented the temple on a regular basis. Literally, this man would have been known and recognized by thousands of Jews! It was no wonder that the Sanhedrin's hands were tied, and they dared not do anything to John or Peter that would irritate the people.

Another home run for our two itinerant gospel preachers. But there would be, from a human, worldly perspective, serious negative fallout to this great miracle --for all believers; for now the Jewish religious establishment was on high DEFCOM 1 alert, and they would be ready to squash this pesky, rabble-rousing Jesus sect movement like a bug if they got out of hand again...so they thought, at least. But this is a story for my next installment.
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Old 09-19-2018, 11:00 AM   #8470
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Chiropractors have poor records with hanging victims, unless your chiropractor can quack like a duck.

Maybe you should ask if constantly insulting others who disagree with you, and who you can not answer intelligently, is curable by some sort of quack-like treatment?
I can't answer intelligently? You owe me so many answers, I'm beginning to lose count.

You are now ducking the thorny issue of how a a fake, fictional passion of Christ, which you have postulated, could possibly have resulted in Christianity becoming what it has, and even how it managed to spread so rapidly through Asia Minor in the first century.

Then you never told us if you gave the green light to your kids when they were growing up to implicitly trust all strangers.

Then of course, it's still a top secret to this day where you think the Present is relative to the Past and Future.

It's very evident to me that you have a brought a [plastic] knife to my gunfight. Didn't you learn better from your "anointed one" from the previous administration?
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:47 PM   #8471
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The Aftermath of the Big Miracle

From God's perspective, all that happened in the wake of the lame beggar miracle was all positive. But of course, this doesn't mean that Satan and his children didn't try their level best to kill this Jesus movement in its tracks. But even though there was eventually a death, we'll see that even this backfired on the Jewish religious establishment big time.

But meanwhile, we learn that the apostles in Jerusalem were performing many signs and wonders among the people, and the growth in numbers was explosive.

Acts 5:12-16
12 And at the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon's portico. 13 But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem. 14 And all the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number; 15 to such an extent that they even carried the sick out into the streets, and laid them on cots and pallets, so that when Peter came by, at least his shadow might fall on any one of them. 16 And also the people from the cities in the vicinity of Jerusalem were coming together, bringing people who were sick or afflicted with unclean spirits; and they were all being healed.
NASB

The the growth of this Jesus sect and popularity of the apostles with the people drove the religious establishment bunkers. They couldn't handle it anymore.

Acts 5:17-18
17 But the high priest rose up, along with all his associates (that is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with jealousy; 18 and they laid hands on the apostles, and put them in a public jail.
NASB

So...they tossed the apostles in jail, and God laughed at that attempt to thwart his plans by sending an angel to free them that same night.

The next day, the apostles, very much to the chagrin of the Sanhedrin, are again found in the temple area. The embarrassed Council had to send the temple officers and their captain to, again, arrest the apostles. After the apostles smote the Sanhedrin mightily with the gospel and confronted them with their crime against Jesus, their words enraged the Council even more -- so much so, they wanted to murder the apostles! And they probably would have if it hadn't been for one lone voice of reason by member of the Sanhedrin whose name was Gamaliel.

After Gamaliel ordered the apostle to be taken out from the council chambers, this is what he told his fellow council members. Pay attention closely to the irony of this Pharisee's prophetic words..

Acts 5:35-40
35 And he said to them, "Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men. 36 "For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody; and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. And he was slain; and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. 37 "After this man Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census, and drew away some people after him, he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered. 38 "And so in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action should be of men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."
NASB

Now we know why Christianity spread so rapidly throughout the Roman Empire and how this happened. We know that the spread of the gospel was indeed the will of God -- "it is of God" (according to Gamaliel's words). And how it grew was based on the hard facts concerning the existence of Christ, his life, his ministry and his Passion (death, burial and bodily resurrection). Nothing else can possibly account for a rag-tag bunch of uneducated, untrained, unschooled "blue collar" workers setting the world on fire for their risen Lord and Savior. This is the most succinct, cogent, rational, reasonable and straightforward explanation and is consistent with the principle of Occam's Razor.

Gamaliel wisely knew that if these apostles were truly men of God, there would be no stopping their movement and message.

We find later in this same chapter that the apostles were flogged and instructed, again, to cease preaching the gospel. But of course, they obeyed God rather than the Sanhedrin. They were not only in the temple courtyards every day, but they were actually doing house-to-house evangelism. They were more aggressive and bold than ever. And their numbers continued to grow in Jerusalem (5:41-6:1).

In my next and final installment, we're going to see how the religious establishment upped the ante -- by murder. They could no longer contain their rage against the Jesus sect, in spite of Gamaliel's wise council.
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:55 PM   #8472
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I don't understand? What you don't understand is that God's blessing to Israel under the Old Covenant (i.e. Law of Moses) was conditioned upon Israel's obedience. Therefore, God could "change" his mind in accordance with that condition, anthropomorphically speaking, of course; for God knew in eternity when and how his people would disobey and when they would obey. Have you so soon forgotten another one his attributes -- omniscience?

But when you say that God is the universe and the universe is God, you are making a statement about his very essence; and by your own admission you have just confessed that his immutability is connected to all things connected to his essence. And an integral part of that essence is that God is not a tangible, physical entity. Has not your "best friend" taught us the following?

John 4:24a
24 "God IS spirit...
NASB

And Paul teaches:

1 Tim 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
NASB

Since God is pure spirit and, therefore, by definition invisible, then He cannot be the universe nor can the universe be Him.
Oh. So now God is only spirit and cannot be anything else even though God created all matter and all matter is energy.

Energy is also unseen just as spirit which is energy is unseen. The two are not only the same but interchangeable as Einsteins E=MC2 proved.

This is how God is intrinsically in all his creations. His energy that YOU cannot see is in the matter that you can see. Because all matter is made up of energy. And WHERE did that energy come from? God. And WHAT is that energy made out of? God.

And do you consider Jesus as part of God? I hope so because Jesus said "I and my father are one". In other words, God is not only spirit but manifests in the flesh. Not only in the Christian religion but in other religions.

You are so caught up in your literal translations that you don't use any common sense.
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Old 09-19-2018, 08:31 PM   #8473
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Oh. So now God is only spirit and cannot be anything else even though God created all matter and all matter is energy.
First of all, Light, you are so caught up in your insipid pantheism, you don't even know what the universe IS. You're now getting caught in your own lie. Originally, you said that God IS the universe and the universe IS God. But what is the core essence or foundational structure to this universe? It's a lot more than energy. It's Space, Matter and Time. And Space and Time are invisible, non-physical, intangible. Matter consists of energy, motion and phenomena. And Motion consists of physical matter. You can't just conveniently, toss out the the rest of the essence of the universe and cherry-pick "energy" to try to satisfy your heresy.

Moreover, God is not only invisible and intangible, but unlike energy, God cannot be measured.

A transcendent God can indeed create things outside of himself. This is not contradictory. But it is contradictory to say that God the Spirit can be seen. That he's visible. It is also contradictory to say that God's essence is the universe, since the universe is mutable, whereas God is immutable.

Also, God is timeless; but the universe is time-bound. Again, the three laws of logic come into play here and to have a timeless God and time-bound God would violate all three laws.

Your "best friend" has also said that no one has seen God at any time, save for Jesus, yet we continually behold the physical universe.

With respect to Jesus, there is no contradiction in his incarnation which is clearly taught in scripture, since the preincarnate Christ added a human nature to his divine nature. Christ is eternal. He always existed. All he did was enter space and time (enter temporal reality), add a human nature to his divine nature and take on flesh and blood and bone so that he could offer himself up to His invisible Father as a sacrificial lamb without blemish for his Father's elect in order to satisfy his Father's justice. Since Jesus is fully divine and fully human, there is no contradiction. Being fully divine, Jesus is as immutable in his essence as the Father and Holy Spirit.
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Old 09-20-2018, 12:34 AM   #8474
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Originally, you said that God IS the universe and the universe IS God.But what is the core essence or foundational structure to this universe? It's a lot more than energy. It's Space, Matter and Time. And Space and Time are invisible, non-physical, intangible. Matter consists of energy, motion and phenomena. And Motion consists of physical matter. You can't just conveniently, toss out the the rest of the essence of the universe and cherry-pick "energy" to try to satisfy your heresy.
So you want me to cover space and time as well? OK. First of all time does not exist. Not going to explain that here.

Second of all space is not empty. Ask any astrophysicist. And yes God would be what the matter that can't be seen in "empty space" is.

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Moreover, God is not only invisible and intangible, but unlike energy, God cannot be measured.
Of course God cannot be measured. But an energy in question CAN be measured. And that energy comes from God and is part of God.

You need to understand that God is not confined to an anthropomorphic being. He is multitasking , multidimensional and formless.

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But it is contradictory to say that God the Spirit can be seen. That he's visible.
I never said that. But I said he incarnates which you seem to agree with me at the end of your last quote citing Jesus as an incarnation of God.

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It is also contradictory to say that God's essence is the universe,
You misquote me. I said God's essence is Divine love. But that he incarnates as the universe, in the flesh, or whatever he wants.

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Originally Posted by boxcar
Also, God is timeless; but the universe is time-bound. Again, the three laws of logic come into play here and to have a timeless God and time-bound God would violate all three laws.
You cannot have an eternal God in a time bound universe. It would not contain him.

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Originally Posted by boxcar
Your "best friend" has also said that no one has seen God at any time, save for Jesus, yet we continually behold the physical universe.
I am not saying the universe is God by itself. That was Paganism. I am saying that everything that has been made by God has God's intrinsic energy within it. Just like we have a soul which is God within us and is part of God.
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Old 09-20-2018, 12:43 AM   #8475
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I can't answer intelligently? You owe me so many answers, I'm beginning to lose count.
Running out of fingers or brain cells?
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You are now ducking the thorny issue of how a a fake, fictional passion of Christ, which you have postulated, could possibly have resulted in Christianity becoming what it has, and even how it managed to spread so rapidly through Asia Minor in the first century.
I said there were no match between the historical and archaeological evidence and the supernatural events in the bible. Religion like influenza can catch on, and be spread by word of mouth. Like a hit TV quiz show. Or breakfast cereal.

However if yo really want to know, not that it will mean anything to you, when the "esoteric" center of humanity casts out a "net", their message is carefully formulated to impinge on humanity, and current cultures of the time. Of course the initial energy soon becomes distorted and corrupted by people like you confusing the inner meanings for those fictional events that are often used to point inward.

Their major tools are stirring and dramatic moving themes. Themes that reach the inner conscience and resonate within some. Same "energy" happens in the beginning of most major religions. There need not be any real events. Ideas can work wonders whether fiction or non fiction, but more so if common truths are somewhat awoken in people.

Bye bye bunky, the rest of your babbling are to dumb to respond to.

And please don't ask me about my children or try to interject your absurd reverse time theories.

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