Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Thoroughbred Horse Racing Discussion > General Racing Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 06-30-2022, 12:27 AM   #196
The Arbiter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by PalaceOfFortLarned View Post
Liam's Map's choice to run in the Dirt Mile made sense actually.

You had American Pharoah in the BC Classic in which only 8 tried to beat him. In the Sprint you had Runhappy. As it turns out, the 3 older male dirt races turned into free squares with those 3 completing each leg that weekend.

So it makes sense to run the Mile because there were world-class horses in the Classic and Sprint? Gee.. what an anomaly that year was!
The Arbiter is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-30-2022, 12:38 AM   #197
The Arbiter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
We already debated this. You are not going to change my mind.


What people want is for connections to be forced to run in a race they don't believe is ideal even if it means some of them get buried instead of getting a nice payday. These days, that means most would sit out, freshen up, and wait for the Cigar instead.
.

What people want is for the best horses in a division to race each other, especially in the championship event. That's literally what every sport strives for.


These trainers have all the rest of the year to pick spots and avoid each other's horses. They can't even man up one time a year? An example like Liam's Map or City of Light running in the Dirt Mile is an indicator that the sport is messed up.



I'm reminded of boxing, a once incredibly popular sport which is now on life support. The best fighters almost never fought each other, they just pumped up their records against easy spots. The viewing public moved on.
The Arbiter is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-30-2022, 01:06 AM   #198
dilanesp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
What people want is for the best horses in a division to race each other, especially in the championship event. That's literally what every sport strives for.


These trainers have all the rest of the year to pick spots and avoid each other's horses. They can't even man up one time a year? An example like Liam's Map or City of Light running in the Dirt Mile is an indicator that the sport is messed up.



I'm reminded of boxing, a once incredibly popular sport which is now on life support. The best fighters almost never fought each other, they just pumped up their records against easy spots. The viewing public moved on.
This. Baseball is hurting because star pitchers only go 6 or 7 innings now as well. Athletes (or those who manage them) refusing to periodically compete is deadly for any sport.

Last edited by dilanesp; 06-30-2022 at 01:11 AM.
dilanesp is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-30-2022, 02:24 AM   #199
PalaceOfFortLarned
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Posts: 717
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
So it makes sense to run the Mile because there were world-class horses in the Classic and Sprint? Gee.. what an anomaly that year was!
It actually was an anomaly.

Track records were set in both the Classic and the Sprint.
PalaceOfFortLarned is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-30-2022, 07:53 AM   #200
classhandicapper
Registered User
 
classhandicapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 18,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No! View Post
Not trying to change your mind.

I only responded to your comment that the winners of the Dirt Mile would have "gotten nothing" in the Sprint or Classic, which is a ridiculous assertion.
If you read the entire thread you'd know what I actually said and that wasn't it.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
classhandicapper is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-30-2022, 08:21 AM   #201
classhandicapper
Registered User
 
classhandicapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 18,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by the little guy View Post
I highly doubt the people misunderstanding your first paragraph would have thought Precisionist or Gulch would win the Sprint.

Furthest Land was related to Dynever, or whatever they changed his name to....so there's that.
The sharpest owners/trainers tend to do what they think is in their best "long term" interests. They don't look at a handful of more surprising successes or failures.

I appreciate that Repole is a sport and took a shot in the Classic with Uncle Mo. But he was the first horse I threw out. However, just because he failed doesn't mean he had no chance or that Liam's Map shouldn't have tried.

In the same way, just because Gulch and Precisionist won, that doesn't mean it would have been economically and developmentally correct for others. In fact, if there was a Mile back then, maybe those trainers would have tried the Sprint anyway because it was for much more money and they felt their horses were versatile enough to pull it off. Or maybe you could argue one of them should have tried the Classic.

I get what everyone wants. People want the best possible races. I want the same thing.

But most of the horses that run in the Mile are not perfectly suited to the other races and others would simply pass the day altogether rather than turn back or stretch out.

I think you run the race and call out those that clearly would be major contenders in the Classic when they seem to be ducking the competition because they are afraid to lose. You call out the connections of St Liam. and the occasional other horse like him.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"

Last edited by classhandicapper; 06-30-2022 at 08:36 AM.
classhandicapper is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-30-2022, 08:51 AM   #202
Spalding No!
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
If you read the entire thread you'd know what I actually said and that wasn't it.
But I quoted your exact words? Here's what you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
Everyone hates the Dirt Mile except me and the winner who probably would have gotten nothing in the Sprint or Classic.
Did the emoji at the end mean the whole post was a joke?
Spalding No! is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-30-2022, 09:35 AM   #203
BarchCapper
Registered User
 
BarchCapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj View Post
The problem with the Dirt Mile is that outside a few tracks where it is run around one turn, it really isn't a true test and not worthy of any kind of championship status. It is more of a consolation prize. The "miler" isn't even really a division on dirt in this country.
One turn mile - the new "classic"
Two turn mile - the TEST OF A CHAMPION!

(It's so interesting to see how things are viewed here vs. overseas. Trueshan just won the Northumberland Plate on the all-weather at Newcastle under 148 pounds, but there's some scoffing at calling him a "stayer" since the two-mile distance of the race is considered a "middle distance"!!!)
__________________
Tom in NW Arkansas
——————
”Past performances are no guarantee of future results.” - Why isn't this disclaimer printed in the Daily Racing Form?

Last edited by BarchCapper; 06-30-2022 at 09:43 AM. Reason: Stayer comment
BarchCapper is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-30-2022, 09:43 AM   #204
classhandicapper
Registered User
 
classhandicapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 18,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No! View Post
But I quoted your exact words? Here's what you said:



Did the emoji at the end mean the whole post was a joke?
Sometimes I think you are being a pain just to be a pain.

I talked about Liam's Map (ducked) in that post and addressed Life Is Good later (long term plans). It's also clear why City of Light went in the Mile.

This is how most smart connections think intuitively if not by using math.

If I'm 40% to win the Mile, and between 5%-10% to win the Sprint, I know I will occasionally win or get a major piece of the Sprint. But the right long term move is still the Mile despite the lower purse.

What you and others want to do is to force him into the 5%-10% or less strategic spot so we get a better race and then point to the occasional success as justification. I disagree partly because I think these days a lot of them will go home and wait instead.

I'm totally with you guys in calling out anyone I think is ducking and hurting the sport.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"

Last edited by classhandicapper; 06-30-2022 at 09:45 AM.
classhandicapper is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-30-2022, 09:57 AM   #205
PalaceOfFortLarned
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Posts: 717
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
Sometimes I think you are being a pain just to be a pain.

I talked about Liam's Map (ducked) in that post and addressed Life Is Good later (long term plans). It's also clear why City of Light went in the Mile.

This is how most smart connections think intuitively if not by using math.

If I'm 40% to win the Mile, and between 5%-10% to win the Sprint, I know I will occasionally win or get a major piece of the Sprint. But the right long term move is still the Mile despite the lower purse.

What you and others want to do is to force him into the 5%-10% or less strategic spot so we get a better race and then point to the occasional success as justification. I disagree partly because I think these days a lot of them will go home and wait instead.

I'm totally with you guys in calling out anyone I think is ducking and hurting the sport.
And this is where I sit with Liam's Map in 2015 Breeder's Cup.

Where does he fit? Sprint is a no go as he wouldn't be near the fastest and Runhappy was a monster. May not even get paid finishing outside the top 5 if you are honest. Had to be either the Classic/Dirt Mile.

Classic? He and AP were front-runners. He'd have to contend with that beast, and go an extra furlong more than the one he was chased down by in Honor Code who was also in the race. He contends with AP for 6F to a Mile, he may not hit the board, much less return any $ for his efforts.

Kinda stinks, but the Dirt Mile was perfect for him, and he would be a massive favorite and likely winner (which he was).
PalaceOfFortLarned is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-30-2022, 10:18 AM   #206
classhandicapper
Registered User
 
classhandicapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 18,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by PalaceOfFortLarned View Post
And this is where I sit with Liam's Map in 2015 Breeder's Cup.

Where does he fit? Sprint is a no go as he wouldn't be near the fastest and Runhappy was a monster. May not even get paid finishing outside the top 5 if you are honest. Had to be either the Classic/Dirt Mile.

Classic? He and AP were front-runners. He'd have to contend with that beast, and go an extra furlong more than the one he was chased down by in Honor Code who was also in the race. He contends with AP for 6F to a Mile, he may not hit the board, much less return any $ for his efforts.

Kinda stinks, but the Dirt Mile was perfect for him, and he would be a massive favorite and likely winner (which he was).
Personally, I think not running Liam's Map in the Classic was a mistake.

Potentially hooking up with AP and the possibility he didn't like 10F based on the race he almost got nailed at 9F were reasons to think about it.

But prior to the race, some people thought he might be better than AP. If not, it was close. He might have put AP away and even if he lost still got a major check. I think that race is a major reason we are even having this discussion.

I would have tried to beat both of them.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
classhandicapper is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-30-2022, 11:30 AM   #207
PalaceOfFortLarned
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Posts: 717
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
Personally, I think not running Liam's Map in the Classic was a mistake.

Potentially hooking up with AP and the possibility he didn't like 10F based on the race he almost got nailed at 9F were reasons to think about it.

But prior to the race, some people thought he might be better than AP. If not, it was close. He might have put AP away and even if he lost still got a major check. I think that race is a major reason we are even having this discussion.

I would have tried to beat both of them.
Well, I bet Honor Code. He was only 15.5 lengths back after 4 furlongs, so he would have superbly enjoyed some help on the front end from Liam's Map.
PalaceOfFortLarned is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-03-2022, 08:25 AM   #208
PalaceOfFortLarned
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Posts: 717
The final question to be answered today. Can he 'get' 10F?

Country Grammer can run 10F, so we'll get an answer.
PalaceOfFortLarned is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-03-2022, 09:05 AM   #209
Michael
Registered User
 
Michael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by PalaceOfFortLarned View Post
The final question to be answered today. Can he 'get' 10F?

Country Grammer can run 10F, so we'll get an answer.
He's by Tapit out of an Indian Charlie mare. Do you ever recall asking yourself... if a Tapit could run longer? I don't.
Michael is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-03-2022, 11:23 AM   #210
PalaceOfFortLarned
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Posts: 717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
He's by Tapit out of an Indian Charlie mare. Do you ever recall asking yourself... if a Tapit could run longer? I don't.
Trust me, I want it to be special.

I want Flightline to be special. I want to see it today.
PalaceOfFortLarned is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
» Current Polls
Do you use energy percentages?
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2022 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.