HSH Software

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Capper Al

I thought you said you didn't use software?

I don't see anywhere in his reply where he states he IS using software. Dave has plenty of non-software products...

[pktruckdriver]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

Patrick,

I do not know why you (or Sly) would not understand this.

I produce software. That software runs on downloads. It is my responsibility to make sure that the software works as advertised. It is not my responsibility to teach you how to win. It is your responsibility to accomplish that.

I do, however, put on many free workshops to do just that. Heck, I even do free workshops for people who have never purchased anything (and many never will).

Besides, the manual version of NewPace (Advanced version) IS part of the HSH installation! No extra charge whatsoever. Even if you didn't buy the video version!

And for the record, the NewPace button has been available to ALL users for several weeks. So, while you were so busy complaining, you could have been using the NewPace button all along. But that wouldn't work for you because then you would not have anything to complain about, right?

(This feature will go away on Friday.)

Because of many, many requests from HSH users, I took a couple of hundred programming hours to make the NewPace task so easy that it could be accomplished with the click of a single button. (This also included a several very powerful utilities that greatly enhance the task of handling hundreds of different systems.)

BTW, one of the hardest tasks was to make the NewPace system flexible enough that the individual user could customize it to suit his own needs. After all, if we're all on the same horses, then nothing will work for long.

Did I OWE all that to YOU without charge?

If I do OWE you everything I ever produce for free, then why would I still keep producing? What is my motivation? Is it because you have worked so hard to be a valuable customer?

Hello Dave

You are a sneaky guy, I do have the NP button available and did not even know it, may I ask how long has it been there, as I only downloaded this month, August, but do not remember seeing it when I started this month working with a few other users, and they mentioned where NP was on there version of H8 and I did not see it, this somehow got by me, guess my loss.

May I thank you for putting this on , if even for a few weeks, too bad I missed out noticing, it would habe been very interesting to see it action, as so many people, and these are people I know, are very happy with the newer version , The NP button, than the original version I have, and I believe them.

We seem to be like Hatfield and Mc Coy, and I did little to stop it, if anything , I kept the fire's going, why, well I seem to be all about me, which for me is to win, and I am also niave and trusting, or was. But upon looking back and seeing what has taken place and how what was and what is now has evolved into something that I thought I had to begin with, can not anyone see where I can get frustrated, being told here this works, and then 1yr later , what I had has been almost completely changed into a product that most likely works so much better now than when I got the opriginal, otherwise the original would still be out there, wouldn't it??

Now change and adapting is what should been done, this is obvious, even I can see this, (do I like it , no) but where I got mad was okay I bought this and did this, and it did not work, and now a year later after tweaking and fixing what did not work, it is now sold under the same name, Newpace but is a completely, revamped, almost new product and one that Dave has markteted as such and now sells for 250 or so, yeah this bothers me , when I paid for the original and it did not work well enough, nor did I get updates to it.

Yet even with this being my frame of mind, the way I see this scenario, others see it differently, claiming I could never win and and will always bitch bitch, bitch, and they will call me names and such, well that too is understandable, as I would not quit stating my opinion, even thou I had a right to, but there comes a time when all things must come to and end, yes.

This so called fued with Dave , is over, wiil I apologize for voicing my opinion, no I will not, I feel that I had the right to do this, and yet even when I still stated the rest of HSH is still very vast and overwhelming, as it is 1 humoungous program, and Newpace is ony 1 small portion of it, one that I got caught up in and forgot how much I missed the rest of the prgram too, thou it is still hard for me to grasp and use, as my mind finds it hard to understand it all, but some of it is easy enough even for me , and this is what makes me think Dave cared for people like , the ones who were a little slow and had trouble with computers and such.

Yes , Dave has worked hard and long on making something in his extensive program which has a big reputation as being hard to learn and overwhelming, yet he has done the following, as he claim's and others say too.

He has made system in his program that he states is only a few clicks here and there and you have your bets , what he stated as a ,"Almost Turn-key System" , he must of made this for me, a guy who was having trouble with figuring out the more complex program and somehow kept getting it wrong, but now there is something much more easy to use, something that even me could use, thou I have yet to see it in action, as I have been banned from all the workshops and groups, for being a disgruntled user who spoke out, God Forgive me, yet the fued we had was great for Dave's business, that I am sure of, but I want it all to end today and but I am sure Bossman and others will take this post and twist it around someway, and that too is okay, I am use to it by now.

Best of Luck Dave , and thanks for making H8 so dang user friendly, if you got time or could suggest someone to help me learn how easy it is now , please put them in contact with me, I would like to take another look as I always knew you were a very smart and while not always the most patient guy, you were when it came to helping me , for a few year's you tried and tried to help me, for which I am thankful for, honestly I am, we both had our moments with each other, and I wish you nothing but the best.

But please at least let me evaluate your new , "Almost Turnkey System", or maybe someone who has been calling me names , will now be willing to show a few things, explain the new system to me, a few clicks does not sound to hard does it, I am a paying customer, if that matters.

Good day and Good Luck all

Patrick

[lansdale]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

You pretty much couldn't be more wrong in that statement, which makes your opinion on this matter highly suspect in its entirety.

And i'm not sure why you're surprised not everyone is successful with Dave's software. There doesn't exist a piece of commercial software that turns everyone who uses it into a winner. Heck, there doesn't exist ANYTHING that turns all, or even a large portion of its user base into winners.

There are people in this world (lots of them in fact) who could find a way to lose money even if you gave them the winner of the race before it is run.

Hi PA,

I'm going to use this post to reply not only to you but to some of the other posts in this thread defending Dave. There's obviously much misunderstanding of the complaints regarding both him and HSH.

First, I am not nor have ever been an HSH client. But I have read many of his posts here, mostly on generic horseracing matter, but also in promoting and defending his products. When I've been critical of Dave's inflation of and overpromotion of his products, I've received a number of PMs from former HSH customers of his who weren't unnecessarily unhappy with the product, but with Dave's customer service. They claim that it's not that Dave doesn't provide customer service but that his explanations of the functioning of the complexities of HSH were unclear to the point of deception: basically doubletalk. Now it's possible that some of the people lacked the ability to deal with a program as complex as HSH, but the critics also included at least two people who were (and are) well-known and respected posters here - obviously intelligent and capable handicappers. What is the difference then, between the critics, and the satisified customers who are supporing Dave in this thread?

The pro-Dave posters seem to fall into two groups: old friends of Dave (Tom, Thaskalos) who like Dave and don't like seeing him criticized, but also who don't use HSH software and don't seem to know much about it. Tom, although he may have been a customer of Dave's in the past, uses HTR and CJ's numbers, to do his handicapping now, if I'm not mistaken. The classy Thaskalos (the only professional handicapper in the thread, AFAIK) also doesn't use HSH or any software, AFAIK.

Then there are the satisfied HSH customers, who AFAIK, are basically recreational handicappers, that is, a group not making long-term substantial profits, nor seemingly intending to do so. This is the group I alluded to in my previous post. Possibly this is the group toward which Dave's efforts are primarily aimed.

Possibly the confusion is contained in the very description of HSH as 'Professional' level software. What does this really mean? That it is software only suited to those who already possess professional, or at least sufficient research skill to profit from its use? Or does it mean the software will transform the average recreational handicapper into a professional, i.e. someone whose play will yield long-term profit. I would say the true answer is the former definition. And in saying that, I think I am agreeing with the majority of the posters in this thread, that software cannot transform your game or take it to a higher level, but only reflect the abilities you already possess. And typically only a very tiny percentage of users will truly profit from its use.

One of the things that I was hoping to see in the thread was a professional player who would step and say, "I made 87k this year using HSH". But no one did. Dave has claimed that there are people making vast sums using HSH, but non have ever posted here. Since no one has recently, I'll name a couple that I know of.

Some of you may remember Rook, a very successful Canadian player who used HSH, but of course only as part of his rather complex and highly proprietary handicapping software. Newer players, if they care to, can pull up the old thread in which the tempestuous Rook ripped Dave a new one over a disagreement on the value of some of Dave's stats. Another pro HSH player was Dick Schmidt, who has since abandoned handicapping as the game has declined, and moved on to trading the the FOREX market. But it's worth noting that these two highly gifted people were already doing fine before they began using HSH, although they both found it a useful enhancement, and because of their great skills, would have continued doing fine without it.

So the primary misunderstanding with HSH, and one Dave has fully encouraged, because it's so profitable to do so, (at least for him) is that it can transform people incapable of really using or fully understanding it into successful (long-term profitable) handicappers. Patrick, as I think he would admit, is a perfect example of this. And I would submit that all the recreational handicappers here, by definition, have no need for 'professional' level handicapping software, from which they will likely not profit in the long term.

Cheers,

lansdale

[Tom]

I became friends with Dave because of his excellent service and products.
I do not use HSH because it is too much program for me. I do not have the time to spend learning a whole new approach - HTR grew directly out of Sartin/Brohamer velocity aka Modern Pace Handicapping, so it was not only familiar to me, it was what I had been using for years.

I have bought Dave's pars, his newsletters, his new videos, all but the Renegade, only because I am behind and still haven't been able to really give New Pace my full attention yet. The Renegade will come soon enough.

[MartyZee]

Let me state that I am not Dave's friend although I would like to meet him; I've been betting horses for over 50 years and right now I use several of his products-Do I understand every aspect of what I bought-NO- has it made me a better and more selective player YES- Have I BOTHERED HIM OVER AND OVER AGAIN NO-He has always responded promptly to any e-mail or phone conversations that I have had with him; You have several people that advertise their products here- Jeff Platt(JCAPPER)/Ted Craven(RDSS) among them and as far as I'm concerned ( without knocking any other software guru's) these guys along with Dave are the best with their CUSTOMER SERVICE; Thanks Marty

[thaskalos]

I don't use HSH...and I would have never replied in this thread had it not been for the fact that you alluded to "all his many other products" as well, in your initial post here (#36).

You also stated that, in your opinion, it doesn't appear that those who are satisfied with "Dave's products generally"...are "serious players".

I have bought several things from Dave...I happen to be satisfied with them...and I consider myself a very serious player. So I felt that my response here was warranted.

Just as you seem to be swayed -- in your opinion of the man -- by the half-dozen negative PMs that you have received...I too am swayed, by the half-dozen times that I have communicated with him by phone.

Every one of our phone conversations has lasted for longer than two hours...and I have never gotten the impression that he is trying to "sell me something", or deceive me in any way.

Horse racing is my passion...and I have bought and read every single worthwhile product that has come down the pike in the last 30 years. A select few have been worthwhile...but the rest of them have been of dubious value...or even detrimental to the serious player's success in this game.

Nothing I have seen could be called "life-changing"...nor is it realistic to expect it to be.

"Success" is not something you can buy...in horse racing, or in anything else.

You work hard for it, you sacrifice...and still you may realize that you don't have what it takes to achieve it.

It appears to me that Dave Schwartz is the last man left in the horserace handicapping information business who is still conducting original research into this game...and for that, I salute him.

And I only wish that his enthusiasm for this game were contagious...

98% of the bettors may be losers in this game, I know that...but Dave is not part of the problem. He is part of the solution.

He is one of the "good guys"...and the game suffers because there are so few of them out there...

And that's my opinion...for what it's worth...

Best regards to you...and please know that my respect for you remains intact.

I find your posts refreshing...and I wish you would post more often.

[barn32]

There are some very odd replies in this thread.

One guy said you don't have a right to complain. People who rarely post are coming out of the woodwork to show their support. Is somebody working the phones? There's even a reply from someone who has only made 6 posts in 7 years.

A few years back a very good friend of mine purchased HSH. He was lost and asked me if I would be interested taking a look and helping him out. I was intrigued, so together we tried to work our way through it. We talked on the phone and by email with a half a dozen other users, and after getting down and dirty we found out that only two of them were betting real money, and one of them actually used the racing form for most of his decisions.

And remember, it was touted as the greatest and most powerful software on the market. This was before Newpace, Renegade Handicapper and Monty Hall. (There always seems to be something "new" and "powerful" looming on the horizon.)

The only conclusion we could come to was that people were embarrassed to admit that they weren't making any money with HSH. And some of those people were (are?) some very intelligent, high profile posters here on this forum, who for one reason or another were unwilling to come forward and admit their total frustration with this product.

PA's claim that there are only "one or two" complainers about HSH is just flat out wrong.

Others here who showed support for DS have basically admitted (albeit indirectly) that they don't currently own or use HSH. (Tom? PA? Thaskalos?) So how would they know anything at all about its ease of use or money making capability?

Here are some facts:

1. HSH is the most overly complicated piece of software I have ever seen
2. If the owner, the one who wrote the software, is constantly making mistakes with its operation (watch his videos) then how on earth is a layman ever going to get it right.
3. None of the HSH users ever post selections or results. They just say how great it is and how well they are doing. Others admit they're not making any money--yet--but if they stick with it...
4. My friend's posts on the old HSH bulletin board were often deleted, because DS would not tolerate any negative feedback.
5. DS constantly dunned my friend for money for support. If you didn't download monthly you were also chastised. Why download monthly if you can't figure out how to use the software let alone make any money with it?

We were constantly asking ourselves, "Why is this software so damn convoluted? Why is it always crashing? Why is the design so fricking awkward?" The programming was just mind boggling. It didn't make any sense that it should be so difficult to use. The biggest hurdle was just figuring out how to get going. Why would anyone design something like that? (Compare this to something like HTR, which has a learning curve, but my God it is infinitely easier to use once you've acquainted yourself with the processes. And I don't remember HTR ever crashing on me.)

In my opinion, DS makes his living selling software and from the monthly download fees. After all, if you are getting ~$65 a month from 50 to 300 users, that's a living. And I have seen no conclusive evidence whatsoever that he makes any or some part of his living actually wagering, even though he often bragged to my friend about how he had an office set up in New York with several full time employees who did nothing but bet with offshore books using his software.

He also tried very hard to get my buddy to set up an offshore account, and he admitted to him that he would get a "piece" of his action.

And don't think we tried to figure out HSH and then gave up after a few weeks. Together we spent hundreds of hours trying to piece things together and we finally just threw our hands up and realized he (we) had wasted a lot of time and money on something that simply did not work.

I may not be the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, but my buddy was a retired electrical engineer with a background in economics. He had several successful patents and retired early. He just played poker and bet sports to supplement his retirement income.

I wish I could give you the names of posters on this site who we were in contact with that shared our sentiments exactly, but we gave our word that we would not.

And yes, he voiced some negative sentiment about DS and HSH on this forum some years back, and after being shouted down he simply went on about his life and gave up on this website.

And I of course will also be shouted down, but I only come around here every four years anyway, so it's of no consequence to me. I have no problem speaking the truth regardless of what people might think.

Go here and watch this video, and after viewing it tell me if you think this even remotely resembles anything whatsoever to do with "turnkey."

Caveat Emptor, ladies and gentlemen. Caveat Emptor. If it's too good to be true...

[Track Collector]

I think there are two different aspects when it comes to this topic.

The first one involves the products themselves. There are many excellent handicapping software programs out there which have the potential to take the user to a much higher level than they are currently at. Potential purchasers should select one that compliments their own approach to handicapping. I feel very confident in stating that a key factor to achieving success with a given piece of handicapping software is the skill set the user already has prior to purchasing subject software. One needs to be able to think critically AND to work hard. Then the software can be the tool used to achieve financial success.

The second aspect involves how the products themselves are marketed. Dave's personality is one of high self-confidence, and this comes out naturally in the marketing of his handicapping products. Based on our own personality traits, we might find this type of approach inviting, or be turned off by it.

Some of the former HSH users may have legitimate gripes, while others may just be looking for someone else to blame. Like a previous poster mentioned, looking into "the mirror" honestly will help them to determine which group they are from.

[proximity]

Originally Posted by Track Collector

The second aspect involves how the products themselves are marketed. Dave's personality is one of high self-confidence, and this comes out naturally in the marketing of his handicapping products. Based on our own personality traits, we might find this type of approach inviting, or be turned off by it. will either be attracted to this, or turned off. spills out extends to how he markets leaves no doubt that he is extremely confident in the products that he offers, and he has no trouble telling you that. It is the nature of his personality. In practice, this type of high-level enthusiasm will be attractive and inviting to some folks while turning others off. Ultimately, I suspect that it comes down to our own personality traits as to what type of marketing approach we prefer.

imo such a personality is not an asset in gambling and i definitely see extreme overconfidence and hyperactivity punished almost every night at poker. but that's a completely different topic.

the bottom line here is that given the extremely rocky history of the relationship patrick never should have paid for this new pace thing and if he tried to buy it (directly) dave never should have taken his money. in the end, they just couldn't help themselves.

btw, track are you just going to timonium only this week or next week too??

[Dave Schwartz]

the bottom line here is that given the extremely rocky history of the relationship patrick never should have paid for this new pace thing and if he tried to buy it (directly) dave never should have taken his money. in the end, they just couldn't help themselves.

Dave didn't.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by pktruckdriver

You are a sneaky guy, I do have the NP button available and did not even know it, may I ask how long has it been there, as I only downloaded this month, August, but do not remember seeing it when I started this month working with a few other users, and they mentioned where NP was on there version of H8 and I did not see it, this somehow got by me, guess my loss.

Wait, WHAT? After years of doing nothing but complaining, YOU'RE STILL trying to use HSH? If that isn't a clear ENDORSEMENT of the product and the man, I don't know what is!

Given what you've written for the past two years, THE LAST THING I WOULD HAVE EVER EXPECTED YOU TO WRITE would be that not only are you still using HSH, but that you want to use OTHER DS products...

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by lansdale

Some of you may remember Rook, a very successful Canadian player who used HSH, but of course only as part of his rather complex and highly proprietary handicapping software. Newer players, if they care to, can pull up the old thread in which the tempestuous Rook ripped Dave a new one over a disagreement on the value of some of Dave's stats.

I remember Rook. Maybe he will chime in on this, as I know for a fact that he still lurks here. And your characterization of him being a very successful player is probably understated. Is he still using HSH? Hopefully, he sees this post.

[proximity]

Originally Posted by pktruckdriver

Now change and adapting is what should been done, this is obvious, even I can see this, (do I like it , no) but where I got mad was okay I bought this and did this, and it did not work, and now a year later after tweaking and fixing what did not work, it is now sold under the same name, Newpace but is a completely, revamped, almost new product and one that Dave has markteted as such and now sells for 250 or so, yeah this bothers me , when I paid for the original and it did not work well enough, nor did I get updates to it.

????????????????????????

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by barn32

There are some very odd replies in this thread....(rest of rant truncated to preserve server space)

I know you've been itching to get this off your chest for quite some time. Hopefully, this reply of yours brings you some satisfaction. Don't want you turning into another Patrick.

You do realize LOTS of companies charge for support, including Microsoft. Do you not?

I don't note anything odd with the replies in this thread, however, your agenda has been duly noted.

Shouted down...

You must have an overly inflated image of yourself to think I or anyone else would waste our time shouting down someone with nothing to offer other than innuendo, anonymous PMs and opinion...and yes, make no mistake, you did not post facts..none of them verifiable. Simply opinion, because HSH wasn't the software for you. It's no surprise. I've purchased lots of software that didn't fit me or my playing style (NetCapper and Synergism VI come immediately to mind).

But you don't see me going around with my crying towel saying how NetCapper or Synergism is worthless, because I know they're not worthless to everyone. They were worthless to ME. Just like HSH was worthless to YOU and your anonymous pals.

OpenOffice was WORTHLESS to ME. Microsoft EXCEL was what I VALUED. Others see it differently, because OO is FREE while you have to pay for EXCEL. Perhaps this analogy will turn the light bulb on for you somewhat.

I get it. You pay for something, and it doesn't turn out to help you like you thought it would. I found myself in the same situation with the aforementioned handicapping programs. Maybe I should have gathered up all the unsatisfied users of those programs via PM and penned a little diatribe to make myself feel better?

Not my style. But hey, it looks good on you, so carry on.

I guess this is going to count as an "attack" or a "shout down," right barn?

Man up dude.

[Rook]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I remember Rook. Maybe he will chime in on this, as I know for a fact that he still lurks here. And your characterization of him being a very successful player is probably understated. Is he still using HSH? Hopefully, he sees this post.

I do lurk on a regular basis but generally will only post in a thread if my name is brought up, as I find it very time consuming to get involved.
I don't take back a word of what I have written over the years, so if anyone wants more detail on what I write today they can go through the archives.

I stopped incorporating HSH data into my homegrown program in January 2009. My four most profitable years have all come since I quit using it but in no way do I think it was because HSH was holding me back. It is simply because I am a better handicapper than I was a few years ago and I have a bigger bankroll to exploit my edge.

Since HSH was the only data source I was using for several months in 2004, I can attest that a horseplayer can turn a profit strictly using Dave's program.

In 2005 and beyond, other sources started taking on more importance. I embraced HTR for its comprehensive yet KISS approach. Equisim allowed me to easily build my own variables and DRF Formulator was invaluable for things like lifetime PPs and Beyers.

It’s not the tools that make a winning player... it's a dedication to improving oneself each passing year.