Religion III

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

The truth is that you have no idea about how the prophets, the apostles and Jesus "truly" interpreted the scriptures; your "knowledge" rests entirely upon some heavily-edited documents which the Roman Catholic Church has compiled in order to further some future agenda. Do some investigation on the "integrity" of the Roman Catholic Church, and when you've learned of its checkered past...then come back and tell us how much credence we should place on its religious dogma.

Your theory would necessitate a huge conspiracy theory -- not only that but all that editing must have been performed by geniuses who knew the scriptures frontwards and backward, up and down and inside out, since their editing was perfect, resulting in no contradictions in any matters of orthodoxy (faith) or orthopraxy (practice).

Actions speak louder than words, friend.

But Occam's Razor speaks far louder than your inane theory.

P.S. Do some investigation on the integrity of the scriptures.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But WHY would I listen to anything by Jesus since it's all about the "experience"?

OMG! You really don't get that this is exactly what Jesus was talking about. About experiencing God within. Holy smokes!

Originally Posted by boxcar

You keep forgetting that Jesus also told the same Pharisees that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to another nation.

You do know you can have an external kingdom and an internal one don't you?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

OMG! You really don't get that this is exactly what Jesus was talking about. About experiencing God within. Holy smokes!

You do know you can have an external kingdom and an internal one don't you?

If there is a visible, physical kingdom, which would manifest itself at the end of this age, then why would Jesus promise the Pharisees (and by extension the rest of apostate Israel) that they would forever forfeit that eternal kingdom and yet keep the invisible, internal kingdom that they would experience in hell for all eternity?

Do you experience cognitive dissonance often -- perphas even perpetually?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

The truth is that you have no idea about how the prophets, the apostles and Jesus "truly" interpreted the scriptures; your "knowledge" rests entirely upon some heavily-edited documents which the Roman Catholic Church has compiled in order to further some future agenda. Do some investigation on the "integrity" of the Roman Catholic Church, and when you've learned of its checkered past...then come back and tell us how much credence we should place on its religious dogma.

Actions speak louder than words, friend.

By the way, there is also a flip side to the coin of your ill-conceived theory: If the RCC did all this heavy-duty editing of the scriptures to a advance their super secret agenda, they did a piss poor job since the scriptures they left us with contradict virutally all their major theological positions. Yesterday, I posted to Doc several scriptures that support the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura, since he once challenged me to produce any that taught this doctrine. How could this have happened under your inane theory? Did the early Catholic Church have covert Protestant theologians in it before Luther's time? Is this why the bible supports Protestantism and not Catholicism?

And this is just once doctrinal example. There are many more!

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

By the way, there is also a flip side to the coin of your ill-conceived theory: If the RCC did all this heavy-duty editing of the scriptures to a advance their super secret agenda, they did a piss poor job since the scriptures they left us with contradict virutally all their major theological positions. Yesterday, I posted to Doc several scriptures that support the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura, since he once challenged me to produce any that taught this doctrine. How could this have happened under your inane theory? Did the early Catholic Church have covert Protestant theologians in it before Luther's time? Is this why the bible supports Protestantism and not Catholicism?

And this is just once doctrinal example. There are many more!

In post #5656, you stated that the scripture editing must have been done by "geniuses", because there were virtually no contradictions at all to be found there. But now you say that the editors did a piss-poor job, because the resulting theological contradictions there are rampant. Will you please make up your mind?

[thaskalos]

To whom it may concern:

It's a well-known fact that the early Christians were anything but "united" in their religious beliefs. In fact...the different Christian sects continually argued among themselves...and even disagreed concerning the true "divinity" of Jesus. Just because one of the factions gained political and military power and drove the other sects into extinction doesn't mean that the early Christian dogma started off homogeneous, and thereby widely accepted.

[thaskalos]

Jesus started off as a carpenter, who shared his religious message with a bunch of uneducated fishermen. But the message gained great complexity along the way...because you now need an advanced theological degree in order to understand its present form. And I wonder...what was the need for all this "complexity"? Why can't the Christian message be made nice and simple...the way Jesus surely must have conveyed it? Was all this complexity meant to CONFUSE?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

In post #5656, you stated that the scripture editing must have been done by "geniuses", because there were virtually no contradictions at all to be found there. But now you say that the editors did a piss-poor job, because the resulting theological contradictions there are rampant. Will you please make up your mind?

Yeah...from a Protestant perspective, it was done by geniuses! But the editors did a really poor job from a Catholic perspective, since the scriptures totally support Protestantism, not Catholicism.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Jesus started off as a carpenter, who shared his religious message with a bunch of uneducated fishermen. But the message gained great complexity along the way...because you now need an advanced theological degree in order to understand its present form. And I wonder...what was the need for all this "complexity"? Why can't the Christian message be made nice and simple...the way Jesus surely must have conveyed it? Was all this complexity meant to CONFUSE?

Again...read my post regarding the perspicuity of scripture and what that means. In fact, a 10 year-old girl was baptized just this past Sunday at my church because she professed to have received Christ in her heart for the forgiveness of her sins! When she was examined by the elders of our church, she was able to articulate the gospel message and what it meant to her personally to their satisfaction. Therefore, the acknowledged and accepted her profession of faith and approved her to be baptized.

There is also another dimension to the scriptures that we mustn't overlook: The Doctrine of Reprobation! To God's elect, he graciously opens their hearts and minds to receive and believe the truth; but to those whose names have never been recorded in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world, he hides the meaning of the scriptures from their eyes and ears!

Matt 11:25-27
25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
NIV

And,

Matt 13:10-15
10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

"'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'
NIV

As I explained yesterday to Porchy, there's nothing wrong with the scriptures or the gospel or the Law for that matter. The problem is sin in unregenerate hearts...and sometimes even in regenerate hearts!

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

There is also another dimension to the scriptures that we mustn't overlook: The Doctrine of Reprobation! To God's elect, he graciously opens their hearts and minds to receive and believe the truth; but to those whose names have never been recorded in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world, he hides the meaning of the scriptures from their eyes and ears!

If this is true, and God is purposely "hiding" the meaning of the scriptures from the eyes and ears of those whom he discriminates against...then, who deserves the real blame for the scripture not being more widely understood? If my name has not been recorded in the "Book of Life" from before the foundation of the world...should I suffer for all eternity as a result?

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

If my name has not been recorded in the "Book of Life" from before the foundation of the world...should I suffer for all eternity as a result?

Suffer for all eternity or share paradise with Boxcar?

I’ll take door number one, Monty.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Suffer for all eternity or share paradise with Boxcar?

I’ll take door number one, Monty.

Don't worry. We'll all be in hell, and with my luck, Boxcar's cell will be right next to mine.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

By apostate do you mean they abandoned the Jewish religion? I mean, after all, they abandoned Judaism for the religion of Christ.

If they apologized to the Jews it was very much in line with the teachings of Christ.

As for the protestants, their apostasy occurred much later.

I'm still alive.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

If this is true, and God is purposely "hiding" the meaning of the scriptures from the eyes and ears of those whom he discriminates against...then, who deserves the real blame for the scripture not being more widely understood? If my name has not been recorded in the "Book of Life" from before the foundation of the world...should I suffer for all eternity as a result?

Absolutely you should! Why is God morally obligated to have mercy on rebellious sinners? Isn't it written:

Rom 9:14-18
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires?
NASB

Didn't Jesus make it clear to Peter that he was the recipient of God's mercy and grace by virtue of the fact that the apostle had saving knowledge of who Jesus was?

Matt 16:13-17
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He began asking His disciples, saying, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ , the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
NASB

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Suffer for all eternity or share paradise with Boxcar?

I’ll take door number one, Monty.

All the saints in God's kingdom will be equally as relieved that you have so chosen, for Jesus has promised that nothing unclean will be allowed to enter the New Jerusalem:

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
NASB