Religion III

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Why should we apologize? You are so dense that your skull makes the walls of Fort Knox appear paper thin by comparison. The bible, which is Calvinists only authority, does not condone, support, encourage or mandate any violence to any people under the New Covenant.

Still a schmuck, aren't you?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

In case you think I am making up drivel

Guidelines for Lutheran-Jewish Relations
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

Adopted by the ELCA Church Council on November 16, 1998.

https://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files...Guidelines.htm

As Lutherans, we seek to renew and enhance our relationship with the Jewish people, a relationship long distorted by misunderstanding and prejudice. In its 1994 Declaration to the Jewish Community, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America publicly repudiated the anti-Jewish views of Martin Luther, expressed repentance for Christian complicity in hatred and violence against the Jews through the centuries, and committed itself to building a relationship with the Jewish people based on love and respect. For Lutherans to read, understand, and acknowledge this Declaration can be a first step in renewing our relationship with the Jewish community. Reconciliation always begins with an understanding of the offense and a willingness to repent and amend one's ways. Only then can further steps be taken to forge a new relationship.

Hows about apologizing to me, my family, Jews throughout the world for thinking Jews murdered their own Messiah and your fictional, but way smarter than you, savior?

Reconciliation good. Holier-than-thou, your theme song, bad

There's no way on this little green planet I would apologize to you or to any other Jew under the conditions you posted above; for I would be calling God a liar! Again, the testimony of scripture in both testaments is that the Jews would reject their Messiah and murder him by delivering him up to Rome for no reason. That is the crystal clear testimony of a large volume of scripture.

The reason the Lutheran and Catholic churches apologized is because they are largely apostate. They, along with other denominations and organizations are the Harlot that sits atop the Beast in Revelation. They do not bear faithful witness to Christ or his Word.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by boxcar

There's no way on this little green planet I would apologize to you or to any other Jew under the conditions you posted above; for I would be calling God a liar! Again, the testimony of scripture in both testaments is that the Jews would reject their Messiah and murder him by delivering him up to Rome for no reason. That is the crystal clear testimony of a large volume of scripture.

The reason the Lutheran and Catholic churches apologized is because they are largely apostate. They, along with other denominations and organizations are the Harlot that sits atop the Beast in Revelation. They do not bear faithful witness to Christ or his Word.

By apostate do you mean they abandoned the Jewish religion? I mean, after all, they abandoned Judaism for the religion of Christ.

If they apologized to the Jews it was very much in line with the teachings of Christ.

As for the protestants, their apostasy occurred much later.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

There's no way on this little green planet I would apologize to you or to any other Jew under the conditions you posted above; for I would be calling God a liar! Again, the testimony of scripture in both testaments is that the Jews would reject their Messiah and murder him by delivering him up to Rome for no reason. That is the crystal clear testimony of a large volume of scripture.

The reason the Lutheran and Catholic churches apologized is because they are largely apostate. They, along with other denominations and organizations are the Harlot that sits atop the Beast in Revelation. They do not bear faithful witness to Christ or his Word.

lulz

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

There's no way on this little green planet I would apologize to you or to any other Jew under the conditions you posted above; for I would be calling God a liar! Again, the testimony of scripture in both testaments is that the Jews would reject their Messiah and murder him by delivering him up to Rome for no reason. That is the crystal clear testimony of a large volume of scripture.

The reason the Lutheran and Catholic churches apologized is because they are largely apostate. They, along with other denominations and organizations are the Harlot that sits atop the Beast in Revelation. They do not bear faithful witness to Christ or his Word.

Simple question. No theology, no bible.

Do you think Luther's antisemitism, and 2,000 years Christian antisemitism and abuse of Jews by your fellow Christians was wrong?

Now for Christian theology. Subject:Forgiveness.

What makes you judge and jury of who is "apostate", when Catholics and Lutherans are able to forgive, and you are not?

Jesus speaks of the importance of forgiving or showing mercy toward others

"And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."

Sound familiar?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Simple question. No theology, no bible.

Do you think Luther's antisemitism, and 2,000 years Christian antisemitism and abuse of Jews by your fellow Christians was wrong?

Now for Christian theology. Subject:Forgiveness.

What makes you judge and jury of who is "apostate", when Catholics and Lutherans are able to forgive, and you are not?

Jesus speaks of the importance of forgiving or showing mercy toward others

"And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."

Sound familiar?

So, first you don't want theology. And now you want theology.

Well, I'm going to give you theology whether you like it or not. Everyone will answer for his own sins. I'm not morally responsible for the sins of anyone, nor is anyone morally responsible for mine. So much for Luther.

I judge apostasy by only one authority: The eternal Word of God. Catholics and Lutherans are largely apostate organizations. Why do you think Luther broke away from Catholicism?

And for your info, the bible also instructs Christ's disciples to not associate with apostates! Sound familiar?

Finally, for the umpteenth time, can you point to one scripture that encourages, supports or condones Christian persecution of any people under this New Covenant dispensation?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

So, first you don't want theology. And now you want theology.

Well, I'm going to give you theology whether you like it or not. Everyone will answer for his own sins. I'm not morally responsible for the sins of anyone, nor is anyone morally responsible for mine. So much for Luther.

I judge apostasy by only one authority: The eternal Word of God. Catholics and Lutherans are largely apostate organizations. Why do you think Luther broke away from Catholicism?

And for your info, the bible also instructs Christ's disciples to not associate with apostates! Sound familiar?

Finally, for the umpteenth time, can't you point to one scripture that encourages, supports or condones Christian persecution of any people under this New Covenant dispensation?

Finally, for the 100th time can't you see those that profess the highest ideals, often fail no matter the religion or tradition. And your failure among many, is not willing to accept Christian mortals practiced rampant antisemitism for over 2,000 years, leading to monsters like Hitler and Stalin

You go on and on describing Judaism from a knee jerking literal biblical Christian framework, not realizing after Christianity split off, Judaism continued in it's own way. The Mosaic covenant was not superseded by Christianity for Jews.

When you insist Jews murdered their own messiah, you are putting your literal biblical spin on a long tradition you barely understand. And by believing Christ was the Jewish messiah, you demonstrate your unwillingness to learn other religions, and consequently reason clearly. Both Judaism, and Christianity are absolutely not history books. All major religions are profound literature mixed in with jumble of centuries of distortion, and not remembering the original intent

As I have told you many times, you confuse the finger pointing at the moon for the moon itself. And totally miss the objective of your or any other religion. That's what many Christians did taking a fictional story, as history, and the really murdering actual living Jews based on that story. Your version of "theology" is a sham, however Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Islam, Buddhist theology, looking at the objective, not the map (finger) of the territory, are not

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Finally, for the 100th time can't you see those that profess the highest ideals, often fail no matter the religion or tradition.

So, what does that have to do with you demanding an apology from me?

You go on and on describing Judaism from a knee jerking literal biblical Christian framework, not realizing after Christianity split off, Judaism continued in it's own way. The Mosaic covenant was not superseded by Christianity for Jews.

Yes, Judaism "continued in its OWN [man-made] way" -- not the biblical way. Mosaic Covenant Judaism died in 70 A.D. when the temple was destroyed.

When you insist Jews murdered their own messiah, you are putting your literal biblical spin on a long tradition you barely understand. And by believing Christ was the Jewish messiah, you demonstrate your unwillingness to learn other religions, and consequently reason clearly. Both Judaism, and Christianity are absolutely not history books. All major religions are profound literature mixed in with jumble of centuries of distortion, and not remembering the original intent

Quit projecting. It's you who is trying to pervert and distort the plain sense of the scriptures with your allegorical spin.

And I don't have to learn other religions. I am a child of God by virtue of the gift of his efficacious saving grace, and I have a personal relationship with Christ who died for me and paid the penalty for my sins.

And I have one more thing to say about your spin of the scriptures: Let's say for the moment that you're right. That conservative evangelical Christians have it all wrong due to how we interpret scripture. But what would that say about all the Jewish writers of scripture (most especially of the NT) when they clearly taught that the kingdom of God would expand throughout the entire earth, and that God would bring all those "unclean, uncircumcised" gentile nations into His kingdom through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ , as the Savior of all men -- while at the same time teaching that the Jews rejected and delivered up their own Messiah, their own Savior to Rome to be unjustly executed? How could these Jewish writers not know that their own scriptures would reflect extremely poorly on their fellow brethren (according to the flesh) and that they would incur serious repercussions. Talk about mental myopia! If your theory is right, the the Jewish writers of the NT scriptures were dumber than a sack of rocks! Those writers give new definition to STUPID!

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

So, what does that have to do with you demanding an apology from me?



Yes, Judaism "continued in its OWN [man-made] way" -- not the biblical way. Mosaic Covenant Judaism died in 70 A.D. when the temple was destroyed.



Quit projecting. It's you who is trying to pervert and distort the plain sense of the scriptures with your allegorical spin.

And I don't have to learn other religions. I am a child of God by virtue of the gift of his efficacious saving grace, and I have a personal relationship with Christ who died for me and paid the penalty for my sins.

And I have one more thing to say about your spin of the scriptures: Let's say for the moment that you're right. That conservative evangelical Christians have it all wrong due to how we interpret scripture. But what would that say about all the Jewish writers of scripture (most especially of the NT) when they clearly taught that the kingdom of God would expand throughout the entire earth, and that God would bring all those "unclean, uncircumcised" gentile nations into His kingdom through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ , as the Savior of all men -- while at the same time teaching that the Jews rejected and delivered up their own Messiah, their own Savior to Rome to be unjustly executed? How could these Jewish writers not know that their own scriptures would reflect extremely poorly on their fellow brethren (according to the flesh) and that they would incur serious repercussions. Talk about mental myopia! If your theory is right, the the Jewish writers of the NT scriptures were dumber than a sack of rocks! Those writers give new definition to STUPID!

How about quiting your constant insults asshole? And how come you never answered....

Originally Posted by Me

Simple question. No theology, no bible.

Do you think Luther's antisemitism, and 2,000 years Christian antisemitism and abuse of Jews by your fellow Christians was wrong?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

How about quiting your constant insults asshole? And how come you never answered....

Not an insult. Just one of the logical conclusions to your inane theory?

And I have answered your question with a rhetorical question of my own that I have asked several time but you're too dense to see it: Here it is again: Does scripture condone, support or encourage the persecution of any peoples by Christians in this New Covenant dispensation? Yes or no?

[porchy44]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The bible, which is Calvinists only authority....

the man who declares that he accepts only the Bible as his authority in religious matters does not really mean it. For he really believes in what he himself thinks any given passage of the Bible to mean, which might not be what the Bible means at all. For such a person, the only ultimate authority in religious matters is not that of the Bible, but that of his own judgment concerning it, and he has no assurance that his own judgment is any more reliable than that of others whose interpretation differs from his and who honestly believe his interpretation to be quite mistaken.

[porchy44]

Originally Posted by porchy44

the man who declares that he accepts only the Bible as his authority in religious matters does not really mean it. For he really believes in what he himself thinks any given passage of the Bible to mean, which might not be what the Bible means at all. For such a person, the only ultimate authority in religious matters is not that of the Bible, but that of his own judgment concerning it, and he has no assurance that his own judgment is any more reliable than that of others whose interpretation differs from his and who honestly believe his interpretation to be quite mistaken.

the Catholic position is not affected by such difficulties. For it holds that Christ never intended the Bible alone to be each man’s “guide book” to religious truth. His method was to establish a Church authorized by him to teach mankind in his name. He chose his apostles, trained them, and commissioned them to go and to teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, “teaching them all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matt. 28:20). He did not tell them to write any books. No books of the New Testament were written until years after his death.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by porchy44

the man who declares that he accepts only the Bible as his authority in religious matters does not really mean it. For he really believes in what he himself thinks any given passage of the Bible to mean, which might not be what the Bible means at all. For such a person, the only ultimate authority in religious matters is not that of the Bible, but that of his own judgment concerning it, and he has no assurance that his own judgment is any more reliable than that of others whose interpretation differs from his and who honestly believe his interpretation to be quite mistaken.

Don't spend much time on this, Porchy. It's been done before...

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...ostcount=18722

The last link is expired, but the late Dr. Young spoke from his Reformed tradition...

https://medalumni.upstate.edu/file/p...FrankYoung.pdf

...when arriving at a different conclusion than Dr. Boomsma utilizing the same method as Boomsma, and for that matter, Boxcar.

[porchy44]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

Don't spend much time on this, Porchy. It's been done before...

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...ostcount=18722

The last link is expired, but the late Dr. Young spoke from his Reformed tradition...

https://medalumni.upstate.edu/file/p...FrankYoung.pdf

...when arriving at a different conclusion than Dr. Boomsma utilizing the same method as Boomsma, and for that matter, Boxcar.

My brother is a Baptist Minister. He has never met a "straw man" he can't knock down !.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by porchy44

the man who declares that he accepts only the Bible as his authority in religious matters does not really mean it. For he really believes in what he himself thinks any given passage of the Bible to mean, which might not be what the Bible means at all. For such a person, the only ultimate authority in religious matters is not that of the Bible, but that of his own judgment concerning it, and he has no assurance that his own judgment is any more reliable than that of others whose interpretation differs from his and who honestly believe his interpretation to be quite mistaken.

You left the Third Person of the Trinity out of your equation. One of the Holy Spirit's ministries to God's elect is to lead us into truth (Jn16:13)! Even the OT warns us to lean not to our own understanding but rather to trust in the Lord with all our heart and to acknowledge Him in all our ways -- and then he will make our paths straight (Prov 3:5-6).

Finally, at the end of the day the bible is self-interpretive.

In principle, the work of interpretation is no different than a believer engaging in any other good work. We must approach all our works humbly, trusting in God to lead us, direct us, help us, supply our needs so that we may ultimately glorify Him.