Mickelson lost $100 million betting sports

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt

So how would a foursome of typical 10 handicappers do playing against one scratch golfer, playing a normal round in scramble?

The foursome would easily win playing a scramble and most likely would win playing best-ball.


How they would fare against a touring pro would be a different story. A touring pro is 5-7 strokes better than a scratch golfer.

[Inner Dirt]

Originally Posted by Half Smoke

no, that is not correct - you're assuming casino management is always operating with maximum efficiency

that is just not the case

maybe some are - but certainly not all - all of the time

there are many card counters who have made a full time career out of playing blackjack

I also counted cards - but in A.C. - where their rules prevented barring for counting - but they could shuffle up and destroy your edge in the middle of a shoe - that happened to me a few times and not very often - I was successful there for 6 years playing one day every single week for about 12 hours breaking only to throw down some food - I quit because I stopped enjoying it - I was never a high roller - so it wasn't serious money - but it was enough to be helpful

if you're really interested in the ins and outs of professional BJ players you might wanna visit the site - blackjacktheforum.com which is run by one of BJ's top experts Norm Wattenberger and has another top expert Don Schlesinger there who often comments

this site is the real deal - of course there is some BS - but it's pretty easy to scope out what is real and what isn't

.

Could it be black jack is the game watched like a hawk, and the other table games don't get much scrutiny? I kid thee not I once got sent packing after clearing only $300 playing Black Jack. Gross winnings could have been $500 it was just after getting married and I had to keep the wife and her best friend bridesmaid in slot machine money to keep them from wanting to be taken to a nice dinner. I thought my best friend the best man and bridesmaid would hook up and he would take care of her. They had never met before, and ended up mixing like oil and water. So now I had to make sure two women had a good time as neither had ever gambled or been to sin city, and going to Vegas was my idea. It was just the 4 of us and we stopped in state line on the way to Las Vegas.


I became very good at not getting made but it entailed giving away chips, so I had high overhead. I was not a high roller, $200 max a hand. I was pretty good at least breaking even on a day, max I ever won on a day was $3,000, I was pretty much just looking for $100 an hour clear. Often I gave away as much as I won. I played at the lower minimum tables, the novice players that frequent those are a distraction to the dealer and their slower play makes counting easier. If some $2 bettor was on the table who was a dealer's worst nightmare you can damn well bet I would toss them a $25 chip when they had lost their limit. I would say I was a people person and want to keep the party going. When the dealer gave me the stink eye, I would flip them a $25 chip and say no one is ever going to figure out how to play and enjoy this game if they give up. Another ace in the hole was an ability to drink enough to float a battleship and still function. I would drink whiskey or rum and cokes and ask for doubles and try to draw attention how much I was drinking. I always wanted to be dealt to first,
so if the far right was not open, I would buy the seat, most playing for fun $2 bettors would quickly move for a $25 chip. I explained that away saying due to my bad back, that I actually had leaning to the right off and on is more comfortable. Last but not least never accumulate a big stack of chips. I used to wear cargo shorts. I lost count how many times I dug out my money clip and bought chips with over $1,000 of them in my pockets.


So how did I get tossed for winning $300-$500? That was at Kactus Kate's (not sure if I got the spelling right) where Buffalo Bill's now sits in Stateline. It was a slow night and I never had more than one other player at my table. I got the last laugh they went out of business.

[Inner Dirt]

Originally Posted by AndyC

The foursome would easily win playing a scramble and most likely would win playing best-ball.


How they would fare against a touring pro would be a different story. A touring pro is 5-7 strokes better than a scratch golfer.

Question, as someone who had to hang it up 25 years ago, what percent of strokes do you get for a handicap off course rating these days? If that made no sense, let us say the average course rating a person plays is 70 and they average to shoot at 80. What handicap does that make them, back in the day I do not remember, just know they did not get all 10.

[Half Smoke]

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt

Could it be black jack is the game watched like a hawk, and the other table games don't get much scrutiny? I kid thee not I once got sent packing after clearing only $300 playing Black Jack. Gross winnings could have been $500 it was just after getting married and I had to keep the wife and her best friend bridesmaid in slot machine money to keep them from wanting to be taken to a nice dinner. I thought my best friend the best man and bridesmaid would hook up and he would take care of her. They had never met before, and ended up mixing like oil and water. So now I had to make sure two women had a good time as neither had ever gambled or been to sin city, and going to Vegas was my idea. It was just the 4 of us and we stopped in state line on the way to Las Vegas.


I became very good at not getting made but it entailed giving away chips, so I had high overhead. I was not a high roller, $200 max a hand. I was pretty good at least breaking even on a day, max I ever won on a day was $3,000, I was pretty much just looking for $100 an hour clear. Often I gave away as much as I won. I played at the lower minimum tables, the novice players that frequent those are a distraction to the dealer and their slower play makes counting easier. If some $2 bettor was on the table who was a dealer's worst nightmare you can damn well bet I would toss them a $25 chip when they had lost their limit. I would say I was a people person and want to keep the party going. When the dealer gave me the stink eye, I would flip them a $25 chip and say no one is ever going to figure out how to play and enjoy this game if they give up. Another ace in the hole was an ability to drink enough to float a battleship and still function. I would drink whiskey or rum and cokes and ask for doubles and try to draw attention how much I was drinking. I always wanted to be dealt to first,
so if the far right was not open, I would buy the seat, most playing for fun $2 bettors would quickly move for a $25 chip. I explained that away saying due to my bad back, that I actually had leaning to the right off and on is more comfortable. Last but not least never accumulate a big stack of chips. I used to wear cargo shorts. I lost count how many times I dug out my money clip and bought chips with over $1,000 of them in my pockets.


So how did I get tossed for winning $300-$500? That was at Kactus Kate's (not sure if I got the spelling right) where Buffalo Bill's now sits in Stateline. It was a slow night and I never had more than one other player at my table. I got the last laugh they went out of business.

.

there are 60 casinos in LV and 441 in Nevada

it's a good bet to assume that while counting, if you were a regular playing a great many hours, you would see a very wide range of reactions to your efforts in these various Nevada casinos

strong counters employ what they call "camouflage" while counting

there are ways to disguise what you are doing

a sharp regular counter will keep notes on the various reactions to his game and exploit those casinos that have the weakest reaction

he will know that he will be tolerated by many casinos if he does not plant himself in any one casino for a long time

he will take note of any hard ass pit bosses

this is part of the game - it's not just the knowledge and ability to obtain an edge

.

[Inner Dirt]

Originally Posted by AndyC

The foursome would easily win playing a scramble and most likely would win playing best-ball.


How they would fare against a touring pro would be a different story. A touring pro is 5-7 strokes better than a scratch golfer.

If we could turn back time 40 years, I think I could assemble a damn good scramble team. No question we would be using my tee shots, never met anyone back in the day that could out drive me, I even had club pros tell me if they could drive like me they would be on the PGA tour. Unfortunately I also never met anyone who could putt as bad as I did. I was also good with fairway woods and long irons. I was also good at approach shots where I could take a full swing. After that having me hit is a big waste of time.


Step dad mid 40's at the time, good at long trap shots, out of the rough, way better than average close to and on the green.


Unknown man in his early to mid 80's. Starter asked if he could play with us since we only had 3. Probably would need a strong tail wind to hit the ball 150 yards but every shot was straight as an arrow and he was deadly from 60 yards in, I have never seen someone drop so many long putts in my life.

Where I was scared of 3 putting he had a 50% chance of canning it. Only issues he had due to all the woods he carried he had too many clubs. In a scramble tournament he could remove his "long" clubs.


As for a 4th, probably not needed, all the bases covered, grab a loner waiting to join a foursome or watch the guys using the practice trap and or putting green. Never can have enough of those short game guys or women.


Also for the record guess who had the best round of the foursome when the 80+ year old man joined us? Mind you my step dad was not in that foursome, it was two friends I usually gave 10 strokes to. He did play off the regular men's tees and we played off the back ones and it was kind of windy and the course was short, but had lots of hazards and tight fairways. He beat me by two strokes. I wonder if that SOB went home and bragged to his wife that he beat some young punk that drove the ball over 300 yards?


The old saying drive for show, putt for dough is so true. I never played golf for big money, but between the ages of 14 (when I spurted up to full size)
and 38 when I had to give it up, all the money, drinks, and meals I lost to short game specialists probably adds up to a number I would be disgusted to hear.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt

Question, as someone who had to hang it up 25 years ago, what percent of strokes do you get for a handicap off course rating these days? If that made no sense, let us say the average course rating a person plays is 70 and they average to shoot at 80. What handicap does that make them, back in the day I do not remember, just know they did not get all 10.

It would depend on the course slope rating, and your current index. Index does not equal handicap!


Explanation of ratings.



http://www.golfmonthly.com/features/...ing-calculated

[Inner Dirt]

Originally Posted by AndyC

It would depend on the course slope rating, and your current index. Index does not equal handicap!


Explanation of ratings.



http://www.golfmonthly.com/features/...ing-calculated

Thanks!



Is slope something that has was not around 25 years ago? It doesn't ring a bell. I do remember holes having a 1-18 difficulty rating, I suppose that was for match play where handicaps were allowed?

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt

Thanks!

Is slope something that has was not around 25 years ago? It doesn't ring a bell. I do remember holes having a 1-18 difficulty rating, I suppose that was for match play where handicaps were allowed?

Slope ratings started in 1987.


I think every course still rates there holes from the hardest to the easiest to facilitate handicap games. A 10 handicap playing a 3 handicap would get 7 strokes deducted from their score in a stroke match and they would get a stroke on each of the 7 hardest holes in match play.

[Inner Dirt]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Slope ratings started in 1987.


I think every course still rates there holes from the hardest to the easiest to facilitate handicap games. A 10 handicap playing a 3 handicap would get 7 strokes deducted from their score in a stroke match and they would get a stroke on each of the 7 hardest holes in match play.

So I played 11 years or so when slope existed and don't remember. Probably because I never played in a tournament, nor used official handicaps when gambling. I know I figured my official handicap, but forget how it was done or exactly what I was at my peak. Wild guess it was mid to low single digits.





I was a fill in when my step dad needed a 4th cause someone was on the DL or had an excused absence. Most rounds were played with friends.
Our handicapping was always negotiable, what those other 3 were likely to shoot varied quite a bit, long courses and tight fairways were murder on those guys. My kryptonite were greens encircled with hazards and any green that was not flat. I swear my friends would shoot high 80's, low 90's on easy short courses and 100+ on the tough ones, that is 100+ even using the foot wedge when they thought no one was looking. As for myself high 70's, low 80's how tough the course was did not matter. My best round was a 77 on a par 74. Since I played there they added a 4th men's tees, which play an insane 7558 yards. If my memory serves me correctly, it looks like they shortened the old championship tee length a little over 100 yards from back in the day and then added the insane black ones. 7092 yds, 133 slope, 74.1 rating, par 74, now the numbers where I shot my best round I swear it used to play a little over 7200, with a rating at 74 and change. That course I only played with my step dad and his friends. My friends that were my age I could never get to play there. One look at my score card got a FTS.

[ElKabong]

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt

Wouldn't the powers to be just shut the table down and change the wheel out? Back in the day when I used to count at Black Jack and I basically got thrown out of a small casino with an explanation, I was told if any of the tables even shows a loss for an hour it will draw scrutiny from management.

Basically yes. There are multiple variations of scramble, all of which suck on a crowded course

[AndyC]

YouTube

[thaskalos]

Walters' book was just delivered to my kindle...and I can't wait to read it. Fascinating character...IMO.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Walters' book was just delivered to my kindle...and I can't wait to read it. Fascinating character...IMO.

He's Titanic Thompson 2.0....

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

He's Titanic Thompson 2.0....

I have his book too.

[thaskalos]

I stayed up half the night and read half of Billy Walters' book, including the two chapters in which he reveals his sports handicapping "Master Class". He claims that, before he wrote this book, he wouldn't have revealed these methods even if someone paid him $20,000,000.

Well...I wish I had gone to bed because the book isn't at all what it's advertised to be. There isn't anything here that could be of any help to an aspiring sports handicapper who wants to follow in Walters' footsteps. All we get from Mr. Walters is a bunch of stories about his interactions with some colorful mob figures, casino owners, famous gamblers, and deceased drug traffickers. Even though Walters claims to have been wildly successful betting every sport, his handicapping "Master Class" is restricted to football...and contains only the sort of basic information that has seen much better coverage in a variety of other lesser-hyped sports handicapping books. In other words...the book is all sizzle and no steak.

In fact...I am so disappointed with this purchase that I will do something that I have never done with any of the thousands of books that I have bought in my lifetime. I am sending this one back for a refund.