Pegasus Cup

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by castaway01

Do you have a top 20 since 2000? Or, if you want to avoid 10 pages of the "How great was Zenyatta?" debate for the 50th time, maybe a top 10 colts and geldings since 2000? Would Gun Runner make that list?

Let's see, who'd be in the running?

Ghostzapper
Curlin
Gun Runner
Arrogate
California Chrome
Shared Belief
Lost in the Fog
Wise Dan
Invasor
Point Given
Tiznow
Bernardini
Smarty Jones
Point Given
Kona Gold
Gio Ponti

Who else?
Barbaro?

[cj]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Let's see, who'd be in the running?

Ghostzapper
Curlin
Gun Runner
Arrogate
California Chrome
Shared Belief
Lost in the Fog
Wise Dan
Invasor
Point Given
Tiznow
Bernardini
Smarty Jones
Point Given
Kona Gold
Gio Ponti

Who else?

Lost in the Fog? Come on. Others on that list I wouldn't even blink putting Gun Runner ahead of include Arrogate, California Chrome, Shared Belief, Bernardini, Kona Gold and Gio Ponti. Smarty Jones either come to think of it. If you are putting him on the list you have to include American Pharoah.

Some others worth considering from the female side are Zenyatta, Rachel Alexandra, Tepin, and Beholder.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by JustRalph

For the fun of just watching them in “their time”

Rachel Alexandria’s campaign was great. Much more fun than Gun Runner. But “fun” is not a valid currency in the game

The shame with some is when they impress us most in their last race. I liked the horse but he only made me a fan after the BCC, and a real fan after this race. When a horse doesn't have the longevity that has me ultra excited to see him or her over a decent span of time, then they ultimately fade a bit.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by JustRalph

For the fun of just watching them in “their time”

Rachel Alexandria’s campaign was great. Much more fun than Gun Runner. But “fun” is not a valid currency in the game

She didnt compete in better races than Gun Runner did, not even close.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by cj

Lost in the Fog? Come on. Others on that list I wouldn't even blink putting Gun Runner ahead of include Arrogate, California Chrome, Shared Belief, Bernardini, Kona Gold and Gio Ponti. Smarty Jones either come to think of it. If you are putting him on the list you have to include American Pharoah.

Some others worth considering from the female side are Zenyatta, Rachel Alexandra, Tepin, and Beholder.

Probably shouldn't mix divisions and stick to the heavy weight division. But Lost in the Fog was a really good horse. I think you need to refresh your memory.

Yes, I forgot AP, seems hard one to forget.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Probably shouldn't mix divisions and stick to the heavy weight division. But Lost in the Fog was a really good horse. I think you need to refresh your memory.

Yes, I forgot AP, seems hard one to forget.

He was, but I don't even remember him beating older horses. Sad ending to his story of course.

EDIT: He did a couple times, one a very weak race at Bay Meadows before the BC Sprint, the other in the Aristides at CD in his next to last race.

[jocko699]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Let's see, who'd be in the running?

Ghostzapper
Curlin
Gun Runner
Arrogate
California Chrome
Shared Belief
Lost in the Fog
Wise Dan
Invasor
Point Given
Tiznow
Bernardini
Smarty Jones
Point Given
Kona Gold
Gio Ponti

Who else?
Barbaro?

You are only talking about the top American horses right? Not the best in the world during that timeframe right?

If so I would include Zenyatta.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by cj

He was, but I don't even remember him beating older horses. Sad ending to his story of course.

EDIT: He did a couple times, one a very weak race at Bay Meadows before the BC Sprint, the other in the Aristides at CD in his next to last race.

If I recall right, he only got a fair chance to race at 3, then they discovered the tumor the size of a basketball wrapped around his spleen when he was 4. That had to affect him in that last year's campaign. The spleen is ultra important to racing with it dumping blood into the system.

It broke my heart when they announced his cancer. It's rare to have a story like that where a star horse is brought back to its barn to die.

[burnsy]

Originally Posted by cj

The game has changed. If we are going to hold up horses to the standard of the old days as far as how often they race we'll never have another great horse. Nobody thinks Clayton Kershaw isn't a great pitcher because Cy Young won over 500 games and he has only 144. He probably won't hit 250.

Right, i have complained many times but it is what it is. All athletes are bigger, stronger and faster today. Its evolution, and training is a real science now. The diets, the regimen, its just progress through the years. The problem is the body seems to have a problem supporting the size and strength of the athlete. The wear and tear factor gets the best of todays athletes. There are exceptions but there are frequent "break downs" or retirements in every sport. And the added factor of "safety measures" . Nobody gave a crap about these things years ago and that was not a good thing. Today, there is a fine balance between being really good and staying healthy. Its not just the horses either. Its true, the bigger they are, the harder they fall. These people and horses are like freaks with ability, size and speed but they are not invincible by a long way and everyone is taking less chances.

[Tom]

Well, look. Gun Runner is a wonderful horse. But he is a wonderful horse based on, what, about 9 races since his loss in the 2016 Dirt Mile?

That's what about twice as many as the so-called great Arrogate?

The game is different today- short flash in the pan horses are all we get. There are no great horses anymore.
Arrogate and Gun Runner are not great horses. They got good for a short time against a lot of mediocre horses.

The only way todays horse get to be great is when all of us old fuddy duddy's who used to watch the really greats die off and no one else remembers them.

I got old claimers from FL I will remember long after I forget about Gun Runner!

[storyline]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

If I recall right, he only got a fair chance to race at 3, then they discovered the tumor the size of a basketball wrapped around his spleen when he was 4. That had to affect him in that last year's campaign. The spleen is ultra important to racing with it dumping blood into the system.

It broke my heart when they announced his cancer. It's rare to have a story like that where a star horse is brought back to its barn to die.

Lost in the Fog is one of my favorite horses all-time, only after he was diagnosed did his recent figures make sense.

For sure he isn't the best horse over the past two decades but there was something special about him imo.

[Denny]

Maybe having to spend several days under security surveillance had something to do with Sharp Azteca's having nothing?

No gate speed. No rally. NOTHING.

I've learned my lesson. (I picked him to win.)

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by Denny

Maybe having to spend several days under security surveillance had something to do with Sharp Azteca's having nothing?

No gate speed. No rally. NOTHING.

I've learned my lesson. (I picked him to win.)

oh, they dont have that at the Breeders Cup?

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by burnsy

Right, i have complained many times but it is what it is. All athletes are bigger, stronger and faster today. Its evolution, and training is a real science now. The diets, the regimen, its just progress through the years. The problem is the body seems to have a problem supporting the size and strength of the athlete. The wear and tear factor gets the best of todays athletes. There are exceptions but there are frequent "break downs" or retirements in every sport. And the added factor of "safety measures" . Nobody gave a crap about these things years ago and that was not a good thing. Today, there is a fine balance between being really good and staying healthy. Its not just the horses either. Its true, the bigger they are, the harder they fall. These people and horses are like freaks with ability, size and speed but they are not invincible by a long way and everyone is taking less chances.

Meanwhile Roger Federer just won his 20th major.

People need to be VERY skeptical about these sorts of sports medicine arguments. They are almost always deployed regarding trends that have clear economic causes.

You make a ton more money in the breeding industry with an intact male horse than you do on the track. That is why they don't race the way they used to. Why do I know this? Because we still have mares (Beholder), geldings (Game on Dude), horses with low breeding value (California Chrome), and horses with no breeding value (claimers) who have long careers.

There is nothing intrinsic about an intact horse with valuable sperm that makes him, and him alone, unable to stand the rigors of a real career.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Meanwhile Roger Federer just won his 20th major.

People need to be VERY skeptical about these sorts of sports medicine arguments. They are almost always deployed regarding trends that have clear economic causes.

You make a ton more money in the breeding industry with an intact male horse than you do on the track. That is why they don't race the way they used to. Why do I know this? Because we still have mares (Beholder), geldings (Game on Dude), horses with low breeding value (California Chrome), and horses with no breeding value (claimers) who have long careers.

There is nothing intrinsic about an intact horse with valuable sperm that makes him, and him alone, unable to stand the rigors of a real career.

Yesterday: stud fee x 40
Today: stud fee x 130-200