Whip Rules

[bobphilo]

Originally Posted by chadk66

apparently Monty hasn't watched much racing

Actually, he has watched a lot of races and spoken to many jockeys and trainers all over the world. He is a recognized authority known for his understanding of horses.

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by bobphilo

Yes, racing has existed for more than a hundred years and some horses have been abused for all the years. Slavery also existed for thousands of years and the world went on just fine - except for the slaves.

I can't believe you would condone just letting abusive trainers and jockeys mistreat their horses as much as they wanted with no rules to protect the animals. I guess you think ALL trainers are perfect angels that care for their horses first. Gee, racing must be the only business without bad people.

those types of things sort themselves out.

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by bobphilo

Actually, he has watched a lot of races and spoken to many jockeys and trainers all over the world. He is a recognized authority known for his understanding of horses.

I have known him and his credentials for quite some time. Ask him how many thoroughbreds he has ridden. He needs to stick to quarter horses. And you might ask him why he wears spurs

[MadVindication]

Originally Posted by bobphilo

I recall that Espinoza hit American Pharoah something like 30 times in the stretch in the Derby. He had recently been suspended at Santa Anita for whipping a filly so hard that she came back with bleeding wounds on her side and hindquarters.
That's just wrong.

It is. I've seen horses urged by scrubbing run just as well or better than when urged with the whip. I don't know anything about training horses, but intuitively I think a stimulus from a whip is just as likely to take energy from an animal than urge them and that could be making otherwise good race horses tire/lose interest. When jockeys have to hand ride horses because of whip rules there is the same result. Jockeys can whip horses and see no response. So why the whip.

I think use of the whip is much like lasix, it's perceived that lack of either would lose competitive advantage. With few horses running without whip we can't see a proper comparison. If we'd see horses without whips win the big races like KD and BC it could change things. But that can't happen if so many aren't willing to train their horses without them.

One day the whip might be seen as archaic. Obviously not that I think the whip is so bad that I would boycott horse racing. Since there is not much done about whip abuse instances, I consider tossing the whip a step in progress.

People use to think breaking a horse aggressively was the only way. And breaking methods have progressed from the atrocity it used to be. It's hard to imagine people treated horses that way regularly.

[MadVindication]

Originally Posted by bobphilo

Monty Roberts, the original Horse Whisperer has argued against the use of the whip. He cites studies done with a radar speed gun, like they use to time Baseball pitches and Tennis serves, show that horses tense up and actually slow down when hit with the whip.

I really enjoyed his autobiography. It was hard to see the images of horse breaking back then he included. It's amazing that he endured the conflict with his father to stand up for his beliefs and change the way horses are trained. He's a hero.

[bobphilo]

Originally Posted by chadk66

those types of things sort themselves out.

Only when people who care speak up and act to end abuses. That's why we have rules to protect both people and animals

[bobphilo]

Here's an excerpt from Roberts' book on the whip in racing. Very thoughtful stuff.

https://www.montyroberts.com/book-ex...hip-in-racing/

[bobphilo]

Originally Posted by chadk66

I have known him and his credentials for quite some time. Ask him how many thoroughbreds he has ridden. He needs to stick to quarter horses. And you might ask him why he wears spurs

Roberts' has had great success in working with racing T-Breds. Here is how he turned around a race horse who was so violent he was banned from the track.

https://www.montyroberts.com/book-ex...stem/#more-406

Here's a list of of race horses he has worked with in both the U.S. and Europe.

https://www.montyroberts.com/horses/...ng-performers/

I suspect that Roberts wears spurs as part of a western outfit. If he uses them in riding they may be used by an experienced rider if used with the lightest touch. In my riding I used a crop, but only with a flick of the wrist. Not the violent swings from the moon that so many jockeys use with the whip. Barbaric.

[Robert Fischer]

I don't know enough about the usefulness of the whip in urging a horse, or the necessity of a whip to guide a horse.

I can't form a strong opinion on this.

[chadk66]

The problem lies in people thinking the whip is only used to make horses go faster. Maybe we should ban them completely.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by bobphilo

I recall that Espinoza hit American Pharoah something like 30 times in the stretch in the Derby. He had recently been suspended at Santa Anita for whipping a filly so hard that she came back with bleeding wounds on her side and hindquarters.
That's just wrong.

Those are rare occasions. And a ban on whips would be throwing out the baby with the bath water.
I cannot stand this idea that if so much as one.....Results in this knee jerk reaction which is effect is kowtowing to the lowest common denominator.
Rules can be put into place to limit whip use to a reasonable level Canada has done just that. And they enforce the rules.
No reason why it cannot be done here in the US.
Again, another instance where support for a US National Racing Authority should govern the sport. Such an entity could govern racing across the board with ALL tracks using the same rules and regulations

[bobphilo]

Originally Posted by chadk66

The problem lies in people thinking the whip is only used to make horses go faster. Maybe we should ban them completely.

We should. The argument that whips are used for guiding horses in racing is debunked by the fact that there is far more trouble caused by whipping than prevented.

Trevor Denman has stated, "It would be a good idea if every time there was a disqualification, the newspaper should read that, “the horse ducked from the whip and interfered with the progress of another horse and was thus disqualified.” Trevor suggested that an extremely high percentage of disqualifications were caused by using the whip. Further, he said that if the bettors could understand that, they would be less apt to insist that jockeys use the whips to verify that they are trying.

[MadVindication]

Originally Posted by bobphilo

Here's an excerpt from Roberts' book on the whip in racing. Very thoughtful stuff.

https://www.montyroberts.com/book-ex...hip-in-racing/

I think this part says a lot:


An Interesting Fact:
Barbaro ran the last 1/4 mile of the Kentucky Derby with the fastest time over that 1/4 mile since Secretariet without ever feeling the whip of jockey Edgar Prado.

Prado never touched Barbaro with his whip, never asked him to do anything more than was necessary. His gentle handling of Barbaro had more to do with humane rather than competitive considerations, Prado says. “If he’s running real hard, why should he be punished?” he says. “I’m a horse lover more than anything else.”

_____________

Here is an article with a good example of how people judge jocks for "not trying" if they don't bring out the whip:

McLaughlin Defends Rosario’s Ride on Frosted By Bill Finley

After finishing a troubled third aboard 2-5 favorite Frosted (Tapit) in Saturday’s GI Woodward, Joel Rosario has come under criticism for his ride and particularly his tactics in the stretch. Rosario never went to the whip on Frosted and seemed to be only mildly encouraging him, which some saw as him being overconfident. But trainer Kiaran McLaughlin told the TDN Sunday that he had no major issues with Rosario’s ride.

Frosted finished third, beaten a head by Shaman Ghost (Ghostzapper) and another head by stablemate Mubtaahij (Ire) (Dubawi {Ire})

“He never hit him but he doesn’t like to be hit,” McLaughlin said. “He’s never hit him in the past, if you go back and look. He just does not respond to the whip. He dislikes it. I don’t think things went well for us and I know it looks bad, but it looks worse than it really is because people do not know he doesn’t like to be hit.”

The Equibase chart caller obviously felt Rosario gave it a lackadaisical try as the footnote noted that Frosted…”remained confidently handled advancing mildly five wide through the far turn under his own power, angled eight wide into upper stretch, lugged in, straightened away not switching leads immediately, had the rider apply the mildest of hand rides rallying to catch on to the top trio a furlong from home the outermost of the quartet, drifted in under overconfident handling…”

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...de-on-frosted/

[CheckMark]

Originally Posted by chadk66

The problem lies in people thinking the whip is only used to make horses go faster. Maybe we should ban them completely.

We should sign a petition for people to say ya or nay to banning whips at all tracks. Maybe pa would be in help (not). It’s just not fun when I see the jocks beat up and lash on natures best animal alive.

[bobphilo]

Even if a horse first responded to the whip, after being hit repeatedly after already running as fast he can he starts to think, "I'm doing my best and and you keep hitting me, so screw you".