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Old 12-15-2014, 12:32 AM   #16
jballscalls
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Originally Posted by proximity
I see that the chart isn't even available and this is definitely wrong as the betting public has a right to at least a description as to how the competing horses were performing in the race.
I wonder if any race that is a "no contest" has the chart not written. I'm good friends with equibase regional director and will ask her tomorrow. It could be the software won't accept a chart if there's no payout info or something.

Cause I don't think the house could just say "hey don't put that chart up" but maybe they can. be curious to find out
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Old 12-15-2014, 12:57 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jballscalls
I wonder if any race that is a "no contest" has the chart not written. I'm good friends with equibase regional director and will ask her tomorrow. It could be the software won't accept a chart if there's no payout info or something.

Cause I don't think the house could just say "hey don't put that chart up" but maybe they can. be curious to find out
They can do it without payoffs, Ocala Training Center is an example. But if a race isn't finished, not sure. As usual, SRU is grossly exaggerating the value a chart would have to gamblers.
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Old 12-15-2014, 01:49 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by cj
They can do it without payoffs, Ocala Training Center is an example. But if a race isn't finished, not sure. As usual, SRU is grossly exaggerating the value a chart would have to gamblers.
I was actually the one who brought up the non-existent chart.

I've only handicapped with you that one time at Charles town but noticed that your game seemed to place a little more emphasis on the last race than mine did so i'm surprised you don't think this info should be available to help us determine the probability that a horse may be going off or coming into form. especially since we're already behind the eight ball as outsiders as far as stuff like workouts, drugs, and injuries are concerned.

I understand that sru cries wolf a lot and I don't see this as being a "wolf" issue, but contend that both the replay and chart should be available to the betting public.
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Old 12-15-2014, 02:36 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by jballscalls
I think you're wrong. I think it's that they don't want video of a nasty accident out there.
I'm wrong about what?

Do horseplayers need video cameras trained on their computers to record live video in case the people producing the video just decide they're going to bury that video and take it down off the internet? Is that what we're resorting to now?
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Old 12-15-2014, 03:12 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Stillriledup
I'm wrong about what?

Do horseplayers need video cameras trained on their computers to record live video in case the people producing the video just decide they're going to bury that video and take it down off the internet? Is that what we're resorting to now?
You're usually wrong about everything.

But here I think you're wrong in your statement "it's disrespect for the horseplayer" They aren't making the decision to disrespect the horseplayer. they're doing it for a reason they think is right. People at the tracks don't sit around and say "hmmmm what could we do to disrespect our customers".
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Old 12-15-2014, 03:38 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by jballscalls
You're usually wrong about everything.

But here I think you're wrong in your statement "it's disrespect for the horseplayer" They aren't making the decision to disrespect the horseplayer. they're doing it for a reason they think is right. People at the tracks don't sit around and say "hmmmm what could we do to disrespect our customers".
That's funny, i don't remember you debating anything i was wrong about in the past, you're certainly welcome to come into any thread that i'm involved in and have some respectful debate on incorrect facts that i've posted. If i'm not right about something, i won't hold it against you to point out the error of my ways, i'm all for correcting my own mistakes and i would appreciate you discussing these "wrong things" at the time rather than just posting this after the fact about things i was supposedly wrong about. I'm not much into blanket statements that are disparaging to my body of work, feel free to debate point by point at the time of my postings, i'd appreciate that approach rather than just telling me i'm 'generally wrong'.

I don't believe you have to consciously decide to disrespect someone for it to be considered disrespect. I agree with you that tracks aren't sitting around trying to consciously disrespect bettors, but if you take the tapes down and a bettor feels disrespected because of it, who's to tell him he's not really disrespected because it wasn't intentional?

Just be a track, have a product, show the horses, show the races and let people decide for themselves if they want to watch a replay with an accident in the tape or not. If you take them down, it looks like you are hiding something where there's really nothing to hide.
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Old 12-15-2014, 04:07 AM   #22
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Why no chart

I asked one time and if memory serves I believe I was told that they didn't put out a chart of a race if it didn't have a winner.
I think it's crazy that Equibase doesn't at least make a partial chart in these cases. Lots of times much of the race has been run before being called off and the chartcallers have already called that much so why not put out the partial chart? I would think the full comments would be the most important of all and there's also the off odds and other things not found in the pp's.
And then there's the issue of someone looking back on that day at a later date and wondering what happened to that race as no mention of it exist anywhere in the charts for that day.
Then, to put the icing on the cake, someone from the track has the video pulled and now the player is left with no information at all in an information game.
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Old 12-15-2014, 05:01 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by takeout
I asked one time and if memory serves I believe I was told that they didn't put out a chart of a race if it didn't have a winner.
I think it's crazy that Equibase doesn't at least make a partial chart in these cases. Lots of times much of the race has been run before being called off and the chartcallers have already called that much so why not put out the partial chart? I would think the full comments would be the most important of all and there's also the off odds and other things not found in the pp's.
And then there's the issue of someone looking back on that day at a later date and wondering what happened to that race as no mention of it exist anywhere in the charts for that day.
Then, to put the icing on the cake, someone from the track has the video pulled and now the player is left with no information at all in an information game.
I saw the race live and was watching it when it happened. What struck me odd was the announcer didnt even see the fall for what seemed like a pretty long time considered where it happened, right in his sightlines in the lower turn. He just kept calling the race. He did mention that the horse was running the other way, but i believe he just kept calling, i dont know for sure if the jocks can hear the announcer, i would think that they're focused on the race so i would think his call wasnt a factor in what the jocks on the track were doing.

When the original fall happened, my first thought was that there was going to be in inquiry on someone, the #1 horse was involved in tight quarters, i wasn't able to tell if the 1 caused the spill or the horse who fell crowded the 1 and caused the one to shift out into him and cause the accident, hard to say who was at fault, if anyone.

A lot of the jocks did a great job avoiding the situation, that horse was coming right at the entire field, if the loose horse hit the leading horse, there could have been a massive chain reaction.
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Old 12-15-2014, 10:23 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proximity
I was actually the one who brought up the non-existent chart.

I've only handicapped with you that one time at Charles town but noticed that your game seemed to place a little more emphasis on the last race than mine did so i'm surprised you don't think this info should be available to help us determine the probability that a horse may be going off or coming into form. especially since we're already behind the eight ball as outsiders as far as stuff like workouts, drugs, and injuries are concerned.

I understand that sru cries wolf a lot and I don't see this as being a "wolf" issue, but contend that both the replay and chart should be available to the betting public.
I'm more of a pattern and form cycle guy than a "last race" guy, though the last race is obviously a big part of that. That said, I'm not sure how anybody learns much from a portion of a race without seeing how the horses would have finished. Pretty tough for me to evaluate a race if it isn't completed.

I'm not saying a chart or replay of a race like this wouldn't have some value to some players, I'm sure it would. I just don't think it is something to worry much about in a sport that has much bigger problems.

Personally, I think the replays should be made available, just edit out parts where horses go down or are still able to be seen while injured. Would take very little time to do that, no idea why racing doesn't do that.
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Old 12-15-2014, 11:07 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Stillriledup
I saw the race live and was watching it when it happened. What struck me odd was the announcer didnt even see the fall for what seemed like a pretty long time considered where it happened, right in his sightlines in the lower turn. He just kept calling the race. He did mention that the horse was running the other way, but i believe he just kept calling, i dont know for sure if the jocks can hear the announcer, i would think that they're focused on the race so i would think his call wasnt a factor in what the jocks on the track were doing.
My take was that at the point of the fall he was calling out the leaders and by the time he got to the rear of the pack, the horse was nowhere to be seen in that part of the backstretch. I assume he was using binoculars for better visibility of colors and numbers which also would have limited his field of vision.

I suspect the jockeys can hear the announcer if they were to listen for him, but it may be very difficult for him to get their attention if they are really focused on the race. I did hear him raise his voice which would not likely have been to notify the crowd (since the horse was running up the stretch at the time and they likely saw it) so my guess was that he was trying to alert the jockeys.

I think the race should have been stopped sooner and agree with OntheRail's comments. I hope the injuries were not serious to those involved.
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Old 12-15-2014, 11:19 AM   #26
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Wonder too if they pull the replay because having it, and plenty more people wanting to see the replay causes a strain on the replay system and/or website, so they do that to preserve the integrity of the website speed. AQU had a nasty spill with injuries a couple weeks ago, postings were made on PA about it. I looked on Twinspires that night, no replays for that race were available. However, the night of this CT spill, I decided to look up that replay on Twinspires and it was available.

In this CT accident, the loose horse was along the rail, and did trip up an oncoming horse that was about 5th or 6th or slow, and others ahead had to move out from the rail to avoid the loose runner. But the loose horse and horse nearest the rail did go down. I did see the two jockeys get up before the camera drew back significantly.

Yes, not sure what one can draw from the performances. May be nice to know who was up close early and who wasn't, but no way to know if any of them were able to sustain their runs, and who was coming up with late runs.
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Old 12-15-2014, 12:03 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by dilanesp
NBC has gotten huge amounts of criticism from the industry for showing spills. They showed Eight Belles quite a few times, and Go for Wand of course. NBC's position, which I think is correct, is "we're journalists, a horse breaking down in a big race is big news, so we are going to cover the story". The people who run the sport would prefer that NBC just unquestionably promote it.
Journalism goes out the door when forcing the presenters of the event to "buy on" NBC.
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Old 12-15-2014, 12:17 PM   #28
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Journalism goes out the door when forcing the presenters of the event to "buy on" NBC.
Well, it's one thing if it were either presented as an infomercial (one extreme) or the BC had the power that the Masters golf tournament does (other extreme).

But time-buys are very common in network TV, and as far as I know, the practice is that standards of journalism remain even when the time is bought by the event promoters, so long as the telecast is produced and presented by the network or syndicator rather than the promoters.

I remember being told by some industry "experts" back in the 1990's that they had complained to NBC and that if the Go For Wand scenario ever happened again, NBC wasn't going to show it over and over the way they did. And then Eight Belles happened, and NBC covered it exactly the same way they covered Go For Wand.

I think that television networks have a certain view about this issue, and they aren't changing their mind. Note that industry-controlled outlets (TVG and HRTV) are much less journalistic.
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Old 12-15-2014, 05:54 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by FocusWiz
My take was that at the point of the fall he was calling out the leaders and by the time he got to the rear of the pack, the horse was nowhere to be seen in that part of the backstretch. I assume he was using binoculars for better visibility of colors and numbers which also would have limited his field of vision.

I suspect the jockeys can hear the announcer if they were to listen for him, but it may be very difficult for him to get their attention if they are really focused on the race. I did hear him raise his voice which would not likely have been to notify the crowd (since the horse was running up the stretch at the time and they likely saw it) so my guess was that he was trying to alert the jockeys.

I think the race should have been stopped sooner and agree with OntheRail's comments. I hope the injuries were not serious to those involved.
this is a very good response. When you're calling through binoculars you only see a few lengths, especially going into the first turn on a bullring cause they aren't that far away from you. Same thing happened with Pine Island in the Breeders' Cup, Trevor was at the front of the field and she was 15 lengths back, no way he could see her. The race Rene Douglas was injured in you hear the announcer call the 3/4 time just after the accident happened and doesn't mention the spill, cause he was glancing to the toteboard for a second or so to get the fraction.

I won't speak for the other announcers, but it's extremely easy to miss spills/accidents watching races through binoculars. I've been at the back of a field and totally missed a spill that happened in the front of the field. it just happens.

And i've asked several riders from multitple tracks and most can't hear the announcer. Hell most fans at the track can't make out what the announcers are saying. the pounding of the hoofs and all the whippin and hollerin in the stretch drowns out most of the sound. And down the backstretch they're really far away and the speakers don't carry that far.
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Old 12-15-2014, 05:58 PM   #30
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I called my friend who is the west coast director for Equibase and she said if no horses finished the race there is no chart. If one horse finishes then apparently they do chart it.

I told her I think the resounding opinion of most horseplayers that I've talked to is they want the information. I mean any horse coming out of that race it should at least be notated they were in that race in the pps.

I certainly would want to know that they were. She said she's going to look into it and get back to me.
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