Could a horse win the KY Derby as 4 yo?!

[Dark Horse]

Originally Posted by nijinski

Dark Horse , no problem with being curious . That's what makes life interesting .
I think though , these days it might be hard to hide the proper DOB when
registering .

But there were some kids attempting to break big into baseball who were older than the rest , from the DR I believe . They tried , lol.

The fact is that there are no thoroughbreds born in December. That of itself should ring a bell. Unless no horse is ever born prematurely, of course.

But I wasn't looking for that answer. I stumbled upon it. It all started with Chrome's results making no sense whatsoever when placed next to other horses. So I have the consistent method to back up the finding, but I fully appreciate that others may not believe a word without a close inquiry of that method. That would be my first inclination as well, and it would be the correct scientific approach. If I ever write a book about my method, which would not serve my purpose, I'll be sure to include a chapter about California Chrome. Meanwhile, the topic can be less specific and focus on the general practice of prematurely born horses not being given an accurate date. The motivation behind that should be obvious. People invest thousands of dollars in breeding.

Thanks for this link, nearco. http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...of-early-foals So greed is also apparent in the extension of the breeding season to where it starts earlier. Still, with no December foals as a consequence... I doubt the Jockey Club pulled that out of thin air just to make an interesting statement.

[jballscalls]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

The fact is that there are no thoroughbreds born in December. That of itself should ring a bell. Unless no horse is ever born prematurely, of course.

.

I've met breeders who have told me they've had horses in late December. I think they just report the foal a few days/weeks later on January 1.

[classhandicapper]

I don't see anything particularly unusual about California Chrome's PPs or development. He did develop somewhat explosively, but that's not too unusual for 3yos. Most of his early starts were on synthetic. He had tough trip in the Golden St Juvenile in his first start on dirt. He may just like dirt a lot more.

I think a reasonable case can also be made that his performance in the BC Classic was his lifetime best race. If so, then he continued to develop well into the year.

[horses4courses]

What a load of nonsense.

I believe that Elvis is still alive.
I believe that no one ever set foot on the moon.
I believe that there were 6 shooters in Dallas.
I believe that the missing Malaysian airliner is looking for Amelia Earhart.
I believe that Santa is coming in a couple of weeks.

A conspiracy theory on CC's birthday?
I'm not crazy, ya know......

[Dark Horse]

Originally Posted by jballscalls

I've met breeders who have told me they've had horses in late December. I think they just report the foal a few days/weeks later on January 1.

Thanks. Skeptics to this practice are very welcome to present records of December births. I was told a December date may also be turned into a February birth, to avoid people taking too close a look. Combined with the earlier Jockey Club focus we may have quite a hole between the definition of a 3 yo and reality.

FWIW, California Chrome was reported to have been born very big, and was kept in quarantine (away from other horses, and exposed only to people) for his first months. Certainly no proof in itself, yet certainly not inconsistent with an earlier birth either.

[Dark Horse]

Originally Posted by horses4courses

What a load of nonsense.

I believe that Elvis is still alive.
I believe that no one ever set foot on the moon.
I believe that there were 6 shooters in Dallas.
I believe that the missing Malaysian airliner is looking for Amelia Earhart.
I believe that Santa is coming in a couple of weeks.

A conspiracy theory on CC's birthday?
I'm not crazy, ya know......

Feel free to present a single record of a December birth for US thoroughbreds. That is, if you can see the larger issue through your forest of funny stuff.

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

Feel free to present a single record of a December birth for US thoroughbreds. That is, if you can see the larger issue through your forest of funny stuff.

So, let's say a horse is born in December, which I'm sure happens.
Short of having a patrol going from farm to farm, what is to be done?

The maturity edge gained by a 2yo born that early is significant.
That's assuming, of course, that the horse is a runner in the first place.

Switching a horse's birth date by one month is not that big a deal, is it?
Every horse born in December, and it must be a pretty small crop, should
not be banned from running for the sake of a couple of weeks or days.

Applying this unusual scenario to a Kentucky Derby winner is a real stretch,
and with no evidence to back it up, is best ignored.

Actually, it smacks of a far fetched argument against CC as HOTY.

[banacek]

Your two month theory might have some validity:

Barbaro: April 29, Funny Cide: April 20, Fusaichi Pegasus: April 12, Big Brown: April 10, I'll Have Another: April 1, Mine That Bird: May 10

[baconswitchfarm]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

Thanks. Skeptics to this practice are very welcome to present records of December births. I was told a December date may also be turned into a February birth, to avoid people taking too close a look. Combined with the earlier Jockey Club focus we may have quite a hole between the definition of a 3 yo and reality.

FWIW, California Chrome was reported to have been born very big, and was kept in quarantine (away from other horses, and exposed only to people) for his first months. Certainly no proof in itself, yet certainly not inconsistent with an earlier birth either.

My grandfather was around standardbred breeding operations when I was young. It was common for farms who stood the stud and were keeping the foals to breed for a October or November foal , then register them for the following year. Pretty common practice. Guys would joke about certain breeders who raced in 2 year old stake races having to do the 3 year old dental work before they brought the horses off the farm to the track. It is not that wild an accusation .

[biggestal99]

Usually if you get "christmas surprise" you get your foal papers dated jan 1, no big deal

Allan

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by baconswitchfarm

My grandfather was around standardbred breeding operations when I was young. It was common for farms who stood the stud and were keeping the foals to breed for a October or November foal , then register them for the following year. Pretty common practice. Guys would joke about certain breeders who raced in 2 year old stake races having to do the 3 year old dental work before they brought the horses off the farm to the track. It is not that wild an accusation .

I'm sure that this happens.
Anyone who thinks they can get an edge in this game will resort to anything.

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by baconswitchfarm

My grandfather was around standardbred breeding operations when I was young. It was common for farms who stood the stud and were keeping the foals to breed for a October or November foal , then register them for the following year. Pretty common practice. Guys would joke about certain breeders who raced in 2 year old stake races having to do the 3 year old dental work before they brought the horses off the farm to the track. It is not that wild an accusation .

Of course harness racing allows IE which allows early foals.

Tb stud farms open mid feb for live covers.

Allan

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

Feel free to present a single record of a December birth for US thoroughbreds. That is, if you can see the larger issue through your forest of funny stuff.

"Premies" should be granted Jan 1st as a birth date automatically.

Breeding to have an early foal is another story.
There should be lifetime bans from the sport for those found guilty of that.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Remember that the Univeral Northern Hemisphere Horse Birthday of Jan 1st is completely arbitrary. They could have made it Dec 1st, but it is just easier to use the Jan 1st & new year date for the full year.

[onefast99]

Originally Posted by nijinski

http://youtu.be/_iFG9isQpzs

I'm sure if he was born earlier someone from Harris Farm would have
been talking .
Enjoy the Video !

That's better than the testimony given in My Cousin Vinny!!!! Priceless....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL4HdaZXuOw