Religious

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

It says that? And then the Christians make fun of Islam?

Hmm...Perhaps you'd care to give us your interpretation of that text?

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

What does a "brewski" cost? Give me the address of a charity or church that you contribute to regularly. I'll send them a check then you can withhold that amount from your next contribution and buy the brewski.

Of course I'll expect you to reciprocate and send a check to The Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science.

Somehow it just wouldn't be the same without you being here.

Boxcar

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Hmm...Perhaps you'd care to give us your interpretation of that text?

Boxcar

Why should anyone be put to death for not seeking the Lord God of Israel, Boxcar? And what lunatic would actually believe that this is an order handed down by God?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

Inspiration of God is not the same as infallibility!

One of the fundamental differences between the Protestants and Orthodoxy, has to do with the way the Holy Bible can be interpreted.

The only way to interpret and understand the Bible is to rely on the teachings of the Holly Tradition of the Church, which guarantees its validity. If we try to interpret the Bible as individuals, without relying and referring to Church, we will conclude that it does not differ from any other book and contains mistakes and inconsistencies.

The Holly Bible was not written as a scientific paper but to notify us about our salvation plan and how it was executed by Jesus Christ.

Well..I'm a "Protestant" and I have never reached the conclusion you say -- neither have numerous others who I know.

Also, the "Holly Tradition of the Church" is neither inspired or infallible.

The God who is wise enough and powerful enough to inspire his prophets and apostles is also wise and powerful enough to open a humble person's mind to understand his holy word.

When God spoke to his prophets and apostles, did they also require interpreters to interpret God's message to them? If the Holy Spirit could communicate to the prophets and the apostles so that they were able to understand, why can He not open the minds of the Father's people so that they, too, can understand scripture?

If God was able to fill the ancient Israelites with all wisdom, knowledge and understanding when building the Ark (Ex 31:3), then has God suddenly become impotent with his New Covenant people so that he can no longer do that?

Finally, have you never read:

2 Tim 2:7
7 Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.
NASB

And,

1 John 5:20
20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
NASB

No man living needs to trust in another man for understanding the words of life. God alone is all-sufficient.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes.

The Church claims to have been founded by Jesus Christ himself...and teaches that the love of money is the "root of all evil". It also teaches us that we should love our neighbors as we love ourselves...and that we should share what we have with those who have not. That's the "theory"...and it's hard to argue against it.

But look closer, and you'll see that the Church sits on a mountain of incalculable wealth, even as its "neighbors" are suffering. The Church has managed to built a multi-billion dollar enterprise based on the teachings of a man who walked around barefoot, and refused any payment at all for the services that he rendered.

Jesus dressed in rags and walked around barefoot...and his "representatives" today are draped in gold, and are chauffeur-driven around in luxury limousines.

THAT, my friend, is the difference between theory and practice.

Your pen writes with an exceedingly broad stroke. Only the Roman branch of the church sits on a mountain of wealth (in addition to the 7 hills, course) -- something that has been discussed at length in the past. The very large majority of the "Protestant" churches do not sit on that mountain.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

What millions of Saints?
The Catholic Church has supposedly beatified about 10,000.

Upon further investigation it turns out the actual number is 993.

Apparently the Church in Rome never read and understood Revelations 7. Methinks 993 is a tad short.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Why should anyone be put to death for not seeking the Lord God of Israel, Boxcar?

Anyone or any Israelite? Because the covenant people of God did not keep His covenant?

And what lunatic would actually believe that this is an order handed down by God?

A reasonable order considering Israel willingly entered into that covenant of Law, never understanding they would never be able to keep the covenant.

Boxcar

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Well..I'm a "Protestant" and I have never reached the conclusion you say -- neither have numerous others who I know.

What I mean is exactly that Protestants try to interpret the Bible by themselves, ignoring the Holly Tradition and the Fathers of the Church, something that has as an immediate result to fall into heretical
conclusions.

In Thessalonians 2 2-15 we read:

15*So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter

Note that the word 'teachings' does not perfectly translates the original Greek text, which writes: “Παραδόσεις” which means tradition rather than teachings.

Either way though, those 'traditions' (or teachings) that were passed by word of mouth consist what the Orthodox call Holly Tradition and has exactly the same validity as the text of the Holy Bible itself.

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by boxcar

W
2 Tim 2:7
7 Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

Absolutely.. The problem again is that you misinterpret it..

In Ancient Greek this verse reads as follows:

νόει ὃ λέγω· δῴη γάρ σοι ὁ Κύριος σύνεσιν ἐν πᾶσι

The problem is that the word σύνεσις does not mean understanding. What it really means is for somebody to act with rationality and mediocrity in such a way to avoid the extremes..

To better understand the mearning of this verse, you should go back 5 verses and read:

2 Timothy 2:2
2*and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

It is clear here, that he is referring to faithful men who will teach the others..
In the (7) he is referring to the Gift of realize who is preaching the truth (because there will be many false prophets)

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Do you actually have a point to make about the above passage?

Boxcar

Make of it what you will.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Somehow it just wouldn't be the same without you being here.

Boxcar

Exactly.

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by boxcar

1 John 5:20
20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Note the following verse from the same epistole:

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; .

What 5:20 means, is that we were given 'mind' ( διάνοια ) to make the distinction of the True God from the antichrist and not that we can 'teach' ourselves by arbitrary interpretations of the Bible in an individual base

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Earth calling Hcap. Sir, try to pay attention. We would have no knowledge of interstellar space if it weren't matter and that matter was in motion and that motion in turn produced phenomena. If it weren't for phenomena acting upon our senses we would sense absolutely NOTHING!

To put it mildly, you sir are full of sh*t.

For your information astronomers measure vast spans of interstellar and intergalactic space using light and electromagnetic waves only. Light that has been in transit in some cases for almost the age of the universe. Approximately 13 + billion years. Of course if you accepted quantum mechanics, you would realize light is sometimes particles and sometimes waves in which case you might be partially correct. However you must then also accept that quantum mechanics teaches quantum fluctuations meaning matter appears out of nothing and disappears back into nothing.

Sounds like God left out a very important chapter of Genesis. And maybe he did not rest on the 7th day (creation is still going on) and your concept of God has been replaced by a portion of modern physic's concept of something originating from nothing.

Remember I offered to help you out by telling you to expand your pig headed stubbornness to include energy and electromagnetic waves. In which case you would still not have proven space is required to support the existence of matter (or waves), but then you would be only 100 years behind modern physics by agreeing with the

Aether theories in physics propose the existence of a medium, the aether (also spelled ether, from the Greek word meaning "upper air" or "pure, fresh air"[1]), a space-filling substance or field, thought to be necessary as a transmission medium for the propagation of electromagnetic or gravitational forces. The assorted aether theories embody the various conceptions of this "medium" and "substance". This early modern aether has little in common with the aether of classical elements from which the name was borrowed. Since the development of special relativity, theories using a substantial aether are not used anymore in modern physics, and are replaced by more abstract models.[2]

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

Note the following verse from the same epistole:

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; .

What 5:20 means, is that we were given 'mind' ( διάνοια ) to make the distinction of the True God from the antichrist and not that we can 'teach' ourselves by arbitrary interpretations of the Bible in an individual base

Seriously? You are kidding, right? Talk about making things up on the fly. Understanding comes from God and is a blessing of God that He bestows upon all his children.

And once again, look what Paul told Timothy -- the other passage I quoted earlier which you have ignored:

2 Tim 2:7
7 Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.
NASB

Also, Paul told the church that God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing.

Eph 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
NASB

And what didn't you understand about the Exodus passage I quoted? God gave (blessed) the workman on the Ark with all knowledge and wisdom and understanding. Don't you understand the parallel? God worked mightily in them so that they would not take it upon themselves to interpret how the Ark was to be constructed. Likewise, under the New Covenant the people of God are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works; therefore God works mightily in his saints to give them spiritual understanding of his spiritual truth so that they do not take it upon themselves to interpret the great doctrines of the Faith or how to live the Christian life.

And don't you recall what Jesus did with his disciples after the resurrection:

Luke 24:45
45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

But when churches take it upon themselves to become the sole authority of scripture, then they rob God of his glory and trample his grace underfoot. Such churches are no better than the scribes and pharisees of Jesus' day who set themselves up as the last word on His Law -- as the final authority. But we know how that ended for them, don't we?

God created us to be entirely dependent upon him -- not our fellow man. And when we are dependent upon him -- when we rely solely upon him, he is glorified. But not so when we place our trust in men who are liars. For when we place our trust in men rather than in Christ, then we are in sin (Rom 14:23).

Jer 17:5
5 Thus says the Lord,
"Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind
And makes flesh his strength,
And whose heart turns away from the Lord.
NASB

It appears you are missing the entire point to this discussion. It's not a question of a born again believer trusting in himself to teach himself with "arbitrary teachings". It's a question of trusting in his Lord and Savior to teach him. The Greek Orthodox and RCC church would have us misplace our trust by trusting in our fellow man. These two churches make God out to be weak and impotent and ineffectual when they try to substitute mere fallen mortals (even saints are still sinners) to do the ministry that only the Holy Spirit can do.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

To put it mildly, you sir are full of sh*t.

For your information astronomers measure vast spans of interstellar and intergalactic space using light and electromagnetic waves only. Light that has been in transit in some cases for almost the age of the universe. Approximately 13 + billion years. Of course if you accepted quantum mechanics, you would realize light is sometimes particles and sometimes waves in which case you might be partially correct. However you must then also accept that quantum mechanics teaches quantum fluctuations meaning matter appears out of nothing and disappears back into nothing.

Sounds like God left out a very important chapter of Genesis. And maybe he did not rest on the 7th day (creation is still going on) and your concept of God has been replaced by a portion of modern physic's concept of something originating from nothing.

Remember I offered to help you out by telling you to expand your pig headed stubbornness to include energy and electromagnetic waves. In which case you would still not have proven space is required to support the existence of matter (or waves), but then you would be only 100 years behind modern physics by agreeing with the

Yeah...where did this light come from? Is light nothing?

By the way, the only way astronomers can know the existence of interstellar space is because matter exists. And this matter is in motion. And this motion produces phenomena which touches the astronomers' senses. Only then can they shine their puny little [flash]lights into space.

The more you talk the more you're making my argument that there is no such thing as nothing. Never was. Never will be. Not only this but if Nothing exists you would not know it. For Nothing can produce any phenomena with which to touch any of our senses.

When are you starting a class on quarks? I can hardly wait to learn how these, too, are no things.

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by boxcar

When are you starting a class on quarks?

Boxcar

This thread is more suited for quacks with quirks than it is for quarks.
Let's just say no to quarks.