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Old 01-17-2019, 06:49 PM   #46
dilanesp
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Originally Posted by the little guy View Post
This is actually a poor analogy in this case. It is not a Lasix optional argument we are discussing. TSG offered a weight break to those willing to run without Lasix, and like the others in the race, the entrants from TSG believe the weight break isn't worth not running with Lasix. I'm not knocking them, in fact I agree with them, but just pointing it out.

I should add, your wording about why Lasix is allowed does not transfer well to your supposed skills as a lawyer. Any judge would throw that argument where it belongs, in the trash. Try sticking to the facts. It's generally useful in debates...even occasionally on the internet.
Andy, my wording was not as to "why" Lasix is allowed- it was about the EFFECT of the current regulations.

And the fact that you did not understand that indicates that you should probably not be lecturing a lawyer with decades of experience as to what arguments would play in court, any more than I should lecture you about who had a bias aided trip at Aqueduct.
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Old 01-17-2019, 08:24 PM   #47
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back in the 80's I had several horses that ran on lasix in some jurisdictions and couldn't in others based on how the rules were then. I can tell you those horses did just as well when they didn't run on lasix as when they did. In fact one of them won by an enormous amount while not on lasix. Best race he's ever ran by a mile. You will never convince me it's a performance enhancer. There are numerous ways to make a horse lighter in weight. I'm not sure if any of you are familiar with the definitions of "sprung weight" and "unsprung weight". If so you'll understand why 20lbs less on a horse via it's body weight is nothing compared to carrying 20lbs less. That being said, what difference does it make anymore when 99% of the horses run with lasix. They should be breaking track records left and right.
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Old 01-17-2019, 08:39 PM   #48
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This is always a LULZ moment...the whole "glad you're in the pools" comment...as if Sammy is extracting GOBS of money from the pools DAILY from RUBES like us...
Nope Quite true...don't play daily...requires too much inside info to be truely successful...just on Big Money days...were there is going to be more than $1 million in those pools...and 90% of the time they're all trying 100% to win...there's plenty of information available on those days that is not on regular days...by the way...you called yourself a rube...I did not...
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Old 01-17-2019, 09:00 PM   #49
the little guy
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Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
Andy, my wording was not as to "why" Lasix is allowed- it was about the EFFECT of the current regulations.

And the fact that you did not understand that indicates that you should probably not be lecturing a lawyer with decades of experience as to what arguments would play in court, any more than I should lecture you about who had a bias aided trip at Aqueduct.
If I were you, I would NOT play the lawyer card here. Maybe you can fool someone somewhere else, but it's pretty clear from your posting here that, assuming you even are a lawyer, that you have no business whatsoever practicing the law.

Just trying to help.
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Old 01-17-2019, 09:59 PM   #50
Jeff P
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My calendar year 2018 database (all track codes in North America and thoroughbred only) shows a little under 40k races with 301,522 starters:
Code:
Data Window Settings:
Connected to: C:\JCapper\exe\JCapper2.mdb
999 Divisor  Odds Cap: None
SQL UDM Plays Report: Hide

SQL:  SELECT * FROM STARTERHISTORY
      WHERE [DATE] >= #01-01-2018# 
      AND [DATE] <= #12-31-2018# 
      ORDER BY [DATE], TRACK, RACE


Data Summary          Win         Place          Show
-----------------------------------------------------
Mutuel Totals   448145.60     452766.50     450903.50
Bet            -603044.00    -603044.00    -603044.00
-----------------------------------------------------
P/L            -154898.40    -150277.50    -152140.50

Wins                39976         79567        116011
Plays              301522        301522        301522
PCT                 .1326         .2639         .3848

ROI                0.7431        0.7508        0.7477
Avg Mut             11.21          5.69          3.89

Here's what the above query results look like if you break the data out by the medication codes in the Equibase chart data:
Code:
By: Medication

Value      P/L        Bet        Roi    Wins   Plays     Pct     Impact     AvgMut
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 0     -606.40    1766.00     0.6566     101     883   .1144     0.8627      11.48  None
 1  -127490.40  503254.00     0.7467   34053  251627   .1353     1.0207      11.03  Lasix
 2        0.00       0.00     0.0000       0       0   .0000     0.0000       0.00  Bute
 3    -9662.20   38712.00     0.7504    2815   19356   .1454     1.0969      10.32  Lasix & Bute
 4    -6390.70   29512.00     0.7835    1611   14756   .1092     0.8235      14.35  1st Time Lasix
 5     -593.00    1854.00     0.6802     100     927   .1079     0.8137      12.61  Bute & 1st Time Lasix
 6        0.00       0.00     0.0000       0       0   .0000     0.0000       0.00  
 7        0.00       0.00     0.0000       0       0   .0000     0.0000       0.00  
 8        0.00       0.00     0.0000       0       0   .0000     0.0000       0.00  
 9   -10155.70   27946.00     0.6366    1296   13973   .0928     0.6996      13.73  Unknown
My comments:

Only 883 runners out of 301,522 were listed in the Equibase chart data as Medication: None.

95.07% of all thoroughbred starters (286,666 out of 301,522) were listed in the Equibase chart data as either Lasix, Lasix & Bute, 1st Time Lasix, or Bute & 1st Time Lasix.

Imo, Lasix is hardly a magic bullet.

However, the win percentages and roi of the runners in each row say that horses treated with lasix do win a higher percentage of their races than horses not treated with lasix.

I'm guessing that's probably why 95% are treated with Lasix whether they are bleeders or not.



-jp

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Old 01-17-2019, 10:51 PM   #51
dilanesp
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If I were you, I would NOT play the lawyer card here. Maybe you can fool someone somewhere else, but it's pretty clear from your posting here that, assuming you even are a lawyer, that you have no business whatsoever practicing the law.

Just trying to help.
Andy, let's just say you are way, way off.
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Old 01-18-2019, 10:15 AM   #52
Thomas Roulston
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Hasn't the Breeders' Cup banned first-time Lasix users from its races?

The bottom line is that Lasix always has been, and likely always will be, a hot issue in racing, regardless of what studies say about how much it does or doesn't enhance horses' performances.
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:44 AM   #53
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Hasn't the Breeders' Cup banned first-time Lasix users from its races?
No, they have not. Where do you get this stuff?
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Old 01-18-2019, 12:13 PM   #54
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No, they have not. Where do you get this stuff?
Wasn't Lasix prohibited in 2-yr-old BC races a number of years ago (not anymore, of course)? Perhaps that's the source of confusion?
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Old 01-18-2019, 12:21 PM   #55
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Wasn't Lasix prohibited in 2-yr-old BC races a number of years ago (not anymore, of course)? Perhaps that's the source of confusion?
Yes, for one year I believe.
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Old 01-18-2019, 01:43 PM   #56
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Wasn't Lasix prohibited in 2-yr-old BC races a number of years ago (not anymore, of course)? Perhaps that's the source of confusion?
Pretty sure it was 2012 and 2013 in all the juvenile races. After some trainers said they wouldn't run because of the ban, Breeders Cup backed down in 2014 and allowed Lasix.
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Old 01-19-2019, 03:24 PM   #57
dilanesp
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Pretty sure it was 2012 and 2013 in all the juvenile races. After some trainers said they wouldn't run because of the ban, Breeders Cup backed down in 2014 and allowed Lasix.

I always felt they should change the name to the Bleeders' Cup.
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Old 01-20-2019, 04:12 PM   #58
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The weight the jockey tacks has to mean something. Evin Roman, when he was a hot apprentice with the weight break was getting prime mounts for every barn in SoCal. Since he lost the bug, he can't buy a live mount. He's not the first jock I've seen this happen to either. Unless that extra 5 lbs has effected the way he rides horses, the only difference is the weight he's tacking.
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Old 01-20-2019, 04:34 PM   #59
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The weight the jockey tacks has to mean something. Evin Roman, when he was a hot apprentice with the weight break was getting prime mounts for every barn in SoCal. Since he lost the bug, he can't buy a live mount. He's not the first jock I've seen this happen to either. Unless that extra 5 lbs has effected the way he rides horses, the only difference is the weight he's tacking.
But wouldn't it also be the mounts he is getting? He probably isn't getting the same caliber since trainers often pick apprentices because of the weight break.
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Old 01-20-2019, 06:43 PM   #60
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But wouldn't it also be the mounts he is getting? He probably isn't getting the same caliber since trainers often pick apprentices because of the weight break.
I think you just repeated me.

2nd and 3rd sentences are another way of saying the trainers aren't giving him the horses they were when he was tacking less.

Last edited by ultracapper; 01-20-2019 at 06:44 PM.
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