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01-15-2019, 06:51 PM
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#16
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the little guy
It's worth at least entertaining the possibility that trainers feel that there is enough of a chance that their horse will bleed without Lasix that it's worth the extra weight to minimize that chance.
It's not all nefarious.
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I doubt it but not impossible. The big name guys have no problem sending horses to Dubai and running without it. I bet if it were an option versus a weight break, they'd go with the L every time. I'm not suggesting anything nefarious. The trainers are following the rules. But passing up a possible speed edge versus a small chance a horse might bleed? I don't see it.
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01-15-2019, 07:04 PM
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7,333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
I doubt it but not impossible. The big name guys have no problem sending horses to Dubai and running without it. I bet if it were an option versus a weight break, they'd go with the L every time. I'm not suggesting anything nefarious. The trainers are following the rules. But passing up a possible speed edge versus a small chance a horse might bleed? I don't see it.
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You say they have "no problem" yet it's not as though there is a ton of US participation over there. There is also the question of relative cost between the Pegasus and Dubai. That difference is significant.
Regardless, what small chance makes it worth the small weight break? 2%? 5%? My guess, from an expected value standpoint, it's a no brainer to use Lasix.
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01-15-2019, 07:20 PM
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#18
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the little guy
You say they have "no problem" yet it's not as though there is a ton of US participation over there. There is also the question of relative cost between the Pegasus and Dubai. That difference is significant.
Regardless, what small chance makes it worth the small weight break? 2%? 5%? My guess, from an expected value standpoint, it's a no brainer to use Lasix.
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Seven pounds has never really been considered a small weight break as long as I've been following racing. Horses have been held out of big races over much less. It just isn't considered as important as Lasix apparently. That speaks volumes to me.
We didn't get where we are today with 95% of horses using Lasix because of its preventative qualities. We got here because trainers figured out pretty quickly their horses are at a disadvantage if they don't use it.
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01-15-2019, 07:32 PM
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7,333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
Seven pounds has never really been considered a small weight break as long as I've been following racing. Horses have been held out of big races over much less. It just isn't considered as important as Lasix apparently. That speaks volumes to me.
We didn't get where we are today with 95% of horses using Lasix because of its preventative qualities. We got here because trainers figured out pretty quickly their horses are at a disadvantage if they don't use it.
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I think you are applying your Lasix agenda to this particular situation and I don't believe it applies. It's OK if we disagree about this.
I don't believe Lasix is the problem that you do. One of us is right...and the other is wrong.
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01-15-2019, 07:35 PM
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#20
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the little guy
I think you are applying your Lasix agenda to this particular situation and I don't believe it applies. It's OK if we disagree about this.
I don't believe Lasix is the problem that you do. One of us is right...and the other is wrong.
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I have no agenda against Lasix. I don't think it is great or anything, but at this point in time I really don't give a shit any more. Weight used to be everything to horsemen. Now trainers themselves are saying SEVEN pounds isn't worth giving up Lasix. If you believe that is because of the slim chance they might bleed without Lasix, we'll definitely have to agree to disagree.
I'm going back to watching the NBA and something we both agree on...the Players Only broadcasts suck.
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01-15-2019, 07:36 PM
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the little guy
It's worth at least entertaining the possibility that trainers feel that there is enough of a chance that their horse will bleed without Lasix that it's worth the extra weight to minimize that chance.
It's not all nefarious.
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It's also possible they're getting some performance enhancing effect greater than weight off from Lasix.
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01-15-2019, 07:37 PM
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7,333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
I have no agenda against Lasix. I don't think it is great or anything, but at this point in time I really don't give a shit any more. Weight used to be everything to horsemen. Now trainers themselves are saying SEVEN pounds isn't worth giving up Lasix. If you believe that is because of the slim chance they might bleed without Lasix, we'll definitely have to agree to disagree.
I'm going back to watching the NBA and something we both agree on...the Players Only broadcasts suck.
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God I hate those broadcasts. At least when NBA-TV showed the Thunder game the other night, they actually used the announcers. Thankfully the good game tonight is NOT on NBA-TV.
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01-15-2019, 07:38 PM
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#23
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7,333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobphilo
It's also possible they're getting some performance enhancing effect greater than weight off from Lasix.
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Everything is performance enhancing. A good dinner is performance enhancing. A morning gallop is as well. A peppermint too.
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01-15-2019, 07:49 PM
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: JCapper Platinum: Kind of like Deep Blue... but for horses.
Posts: 5,290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
I don't really think this an apples to apples comparison. If I lose 10 pounds but carry 10 extra running a 100 meters, will my time be the same as before, faster, or slower? I don't know the answer but I highly doubt it is a one to one relationship.
I think trainers think the performance enhancing effect of Lasix (be it from weight loss or whatever) is greater than any advantage gained by carrying less weight in the saddle, and I tend to agree with them. This is why nobody tried it last year, and probably won't this year. I also suspect this is why 95% of the horses in this country run with the drug.
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It may not be a true one to one relationship.
But on the other hand, it probably isn't anywhere close to a four to one relationship (28 pounds less water weight vs. a 7 pound lower weight assignment.)
The fact that no trainer has opted to forgo lasix in order to get 7 pounds off should be telling us something.
-jp
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__________________
Team JCapper: 2011 PAIHL Regular Season ROI Leader after 15 weeks
www.JCapper.com
Last edited by Jeff P; 01-15-2019 at 07:52 PM.
Reason: spelling - it's forgo not forego
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01-15-2019, 07:58 PM
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Boston+Ocala
Posts: 23,760
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i am going to step in here because it is a misconception that lasix prevents bleeding. all lasix does is reduces the fluids in the body along with side effects. lasix causes the body to produce more urine which can help to remove residue along with fluid in the body in either human or horse.
that being said, there are illegal medications and herbs that will completely block bleeding from horses lungs. it is very unhealthy to the horse, but when used with lasix the substance will exit the body and the tests will come back negative.
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01-15-2019, 09:50 PM
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: central fla.
Posts: 4,874
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for some so familiar and so-called experts here in regards to Lasix...that still say it has no help on performance...well it's
It's pretty cut and dried...horse loses 20 lbs + in urine with Lasix...so 7 lbs off vs 20...well it's a no-brainer...
To further verify this...just look at English trainer A. O'brien's history in big races and the breeder's cup here stateside...it's STARTLING...
He started out with no Lasix on ANY of his shipper's...and even his odds-on TURF favorites were getting SMOKED...he's since switched and now ALMOST all run with it...and his %'s went UP & UP...pretty clear cut...
Cj was/is most definitely right...just didn't define why/how Lasix works...for those that think otherwise...glad you're in THE pools...
__________________
got handed a lemon...make lemonade....add sugar or brown sugar or stevia or my personal favorite....miracle fruit....google it...thank me later...
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01-15-2019, 10:25 PM
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the little guy
Everything is performance enhancing. A good dinner is performance enhancing. A morning gallop is as well. A peppermint too.
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So let's go ahead and legalize milkshakes, clenbuterol, and amphetamines then.
Most competitive sports compete under WADA rules and go precisely in the opposite direction- you can't even take allergy medication before a track meet. And certainly not Lasix.
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01-16-2019, 09:42 AM
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7,333
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I'm actually curious if anyone knows if the three Stronach Stable horses will be running without Lasix, and thus taking advantage of the weight break?
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01-16-2019, 10:04 AM
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadk66
has anybody ever been able to tack 101 lbs?
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Back in the day. sure. Now. not a chance.
Allan
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01-16-2019, 10:09 AM
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the little guy
Everything is performance enhancing. A good dinner is performance enhancing. A morning gallop is as well. A peppermint too.
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One could claim that anything that makes a horse feel good is performance enhancing. What we are talking about here is performance enhancement through medication. Specifically medication not being used to treat a diagnosed medical condition.
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