Trump signs tariffs

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by FantasticDan

https://twitter.com/voxdotcom/status/972966665221787650

Didn't you tell me Trump was making everything great for the rich business leaders and shitting on the middle class?

So now he's shitting on business too?

What to make of this man? Does he confuse you too?

Maybe you should be cheering him now? Better consult the playbook for a way out of that predicament!

[lamboguy]

Trump has been picking up plenty of support from liberal democrats lately. he has been losing support from evangelical republican voters. he is losing support from republican women, but some liberal democratic women love him. bottom line is he really doesn't have to do to much more to get re-elected. when you shake up the tree, there are many more democrats than republicans these days and to get elected you need plenty of democrats voting for you in the right places and Trump knows how to get them to pull the lever.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by reckless

Pa. Sen. Pat Toomey, former head of the globalist Club for Growth, said today on radio here that this company bought its steel from domestic manufacturers, not from foreign producers.

To keep things very simple, if imported steel prices went up 30%, do you believe that US steel makers will keep their prices at the current levels? You don't think they might increase their prices by 15-20%?

Even factoring out any greed on the part of steel companies, if import prices go up 30%, demand for US steel would increase, driving up prices as steel makers increased output with the probability of higher costs at the margin.

[davew]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Didn't you tell me Trump was making everything great for the rich business leaders and shitting on the middle class?

So now he's shitting on business too?

What to make of this man? Does he confuse you too?

Maybe you should be cheering him now? Better consult the playbook for a way out of that predicament!

Well that is what the dim leaders keep saying on TV, and they know more than us

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

Couldn't possibly be the politician...

Must be the guy paying his bills making steel kegs... triple eyeroll

I give the politician the benefit of the doubt. He isn't lying, just clueless. Politicians generally ignore the unintended consequences of government regulation, like a tariff on imported steel allows prices on domestic steel to increase by a lesser amount and still be competitive.

Which is why politicians should keep their fingers out of things they don't understand, like trade. Or health care. Or guns. Or the free market.

[reckless]

Originally Posted by Clocker

To keep things very simple, if imported steel prices went up 30%, do you believe that US steel makers will keep their prices at the current levels? You don't think they might increase their prices by 15-20%?

Even factoring out any greed on the part of steel companies, if import prices go up 30%, demand for US steel would increase, driving up prices as steel makers increased output with the probability of higher costs at the margin.

Look clock, I am no longer in the mood to play the merry-go-round game that this thread is becoming. It's not a knock on you, but enough already.

To keep things very simple, as you say ... we do know the simple facts:

-- 43 years of consecutive trade deficits since 'free' and unfettered trade accelerated.

-- These 'free' trade treaties have resulted in trillions of US dollars and wealth transferred overseas.

-- Tens of thousands of factories and plants closed with millions of job losses.

-- You first mentioned how this tariff will destroy the consumer. My example of a $100 increase on a $30,000 purchase is not destructive to the consumer.

Claims by you and others, here and elsewhere, are basically saying the US economy will crater, hyperbole intended, thanks to the Trump tariff and the America First policy.

So, to keep this all very simple, why don't we wait 2-3 years and see how the tariffs and the results to our overall economy play out?

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by reckless

Look clock, I am no longer in the mood to play the merry-go-round game that this thread is becoming. It's not a knock on you, but enough already.

Nobody is making you "play". If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I am not playing any game here, I am pointing out the reality of the economics of tariffs. Reality that experts on both sides of the aisle acknowledge. Reality that Trump and his nationalist cadre refuse to accept.

To keep things very simple, as you say ... we do know the simple facts:

-- 43 years of consecutive trade deficits since 'free' and unfettered trade accelerated.

You say that like it is a bad thing. Proof?

Claims by you and others, here and elsewhere, are basically saying the US economy will crater, hyperbole intended, thanks to the Trump tariff and the America First policy.

So, to keep this all very simple, why don't we wait 2-3 years and see how the tariffs and the results to our overall economy play out?

I never said "crater", and I am not aware of any other serious poster here that did either. I said, and continue to say, that we know from experience that tariffs will seriously hurt the average consumer. And we know from the Bush tariffs that they were job killers. But you continue to write that off to Bush rather than the tariffs. There is no evidence to show that the tariffs would benefit anyone other than the owners and workers in a few selected industries.

This is not new stuff. We have hundreds of years of experience with tariffs, and we know the consequences. Why should we wait years, when Trump's own campaign admitted the consequences?

According to Team Trump, their import tax would (i) force American consumers to pay 10 to 15 percent more for food, clothing, shoes, electronics, and other basic necessities; and (ii) thereby assist American manufacturing companies and their workers.

http://thefederalist.com/2016/03/01/...-middle-class/

[reckless]

Originally Posted by Clocker

Nobody is making you "play". If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

... I can't take the heat ?? Ha Ha. I make more heat on here than most. And contribute a lot more too.

You, as a matter of fact, never contribute an original thought or go out on the lamb with any 'hot' point of view... you just hide in the shadows and wait for the dust to settle and then you have all the answers and criticisms, just like a typical snark.

I am not playing any game here, I am pointing out the reality of the economics of tariffs. Reality that experts on both sides of the aisle acknowledge. Reality that Trump and his nationalist cadre refuse to accept.

You say that like it is a bad thing. Proof?

Experts on both sides of the aisle?? You're joking ... no, I take that back; you're not joking.

Your reality of truth has now been discounted by the millions and millions of people who had their jobs disappear and their incomes slashed thanks to unfettered, corrupted 'free' trade contracts these past 43 years.

What more proof do you want? Some graph coming from the US gov't that caused all this?? Or a press release from the Chamber of Commerce or trade assn. who bought the same politicians off in the first place and who benefits the most from all this? Yes, that's it: both sides of the corrupt bargain, 20th century rendition --that being the US government and their Fortune 500 co-conspirators-- both screwing the American worker and US taxpayer in concert. Take your pick.

I never said "crater", and I am not aware of any other serious poster here that did either. I said, and continue to say, that we know from experience that tariffs will seriously hurt the average consumer. And we know from the Bush tariffs that they were job killers. But you continue to write that off to Bush rather than the tariffs. There is no evidence to show that the tariffs would benefit anyone other than the owners and workers in a few selected industries.

The implication by you and others is our economy will tank because of the Trump steel Tariffs. Do you deny this? I said crater, and I also wrote hyperbole intended. If you want to play wise ass and parse everything you don't like that I write, than you need to demonstrate much more creativity than what you've 'showcased' so far.

This is not new stuff. We have hundreds of years of experience with tariffs, and we know the consequences. Why should we wait years, when Trump's own campaign admitted the consequences?

Well we need not have to talk about hundreds of years, just the last 43 years of consecutive trade deficits will do. That's a nice enough 'consequence' to convince most people that this 'free' trade system has failed the USA.

Your idea of 'free' trade has resulted in the decimation of the middle class that saw their incomes crater and their jobs gone. They now need to shop at crappy '99 cent' type stores and eat shitty $1 Happy Meals. And they don't do so because it's their 'choice' as you say... it's done out of necessity for many people because of all these perceived 'benefits' of 'free' trade.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by reckless

You, as a matter of fact, never contribute an original thought or go out on the lamb with any 'hot' point of view... you just hide in the shadows and wait for the dust to settle and then you have all the answers and criticisms, just like a typical snark.

Straight out of The Donald Playbook. If you can't attack the facts, attack the person.

[Clocker]

Why trade deficits are a good thing, presented by both sides of the aisle, a GOP Senator writing in a far left newspaper.

For starters, a powerful economy such as ours often runs a trade deficit because of the immense buying power of its people. Mexico’s average net per capita income is roughly $13,000, while the average U.S. household brings in more than $41,000 each year. Americans have a far greater capacity to buy goods than do consumers in Mexico. It should come as no surprise that we do exactly that.
. . . .
It should be an encouraging sign that we are by far the world’s largest receiver of foreign direct investment. Our trade deficit means, in part, that U.S. companies are considered to be a better investment than companies in other countries. More investment in American businesses means more jobs and higher wages for American workers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.96f929c0e787

[Clocker]

...while protecting a chosen few.

Why in the world would the U.S. steel and aluminum industries press the president to levy heavy tariffs? The answer is simple. Reducing the amounts of steel and aluminum that hit our shores enables American producers to charge higher prices. Thus, U.S. steel and aluminum producers will earn higher profits, hire more workers and pay them higher wages. They are the visible beneficiaries of Trump's tariffs.

But when the government creates a benefit for one American, it is a virtual guarantee that it will come at the expense of another American -- an unseen victim. The victims of steel and aluminum tariffs are the companies that use steel and aluminum. Faced with higher input costs, they become less competitive on the world market. For example, companies such as John Deere may respond to higher steel prices by purchasing their parts in the international market rather than in the U.S. To become more competitive in the world market, some firms may move their production facilities to foreign countries that do not have tariffs on foreign steel and aluminum. Studies by both the Peterson Institute for International Economics and the Consuming Industries Trade Action Coalition show that steel-using industries -- such as the U.S. auto industry, its suppliers and manufacturers of heavy construction equipment -- were harmed by tariffs on steel enacted by George W. Bush.

https://townhall.com/columnists/walt...riffs-n2459974

[reckless]

Originally Posted by Clocker

Straight out of The Donald Playbook. If you can't attack the facts, attack the person.

Typical response by an anti-Trump troll who proves it regularly by creating your very own hate-Trump narrative. You're being laughed at with your hatred for Trump.

btw, I did provide some facts -- the ones that are true and a result of all this 'free' trade you espouse. W. Bush destroying the US economy led the way for Barack Obama -- and Bush's own steel tariff was not the reason for the destruction W. caused. Keep hitching your wagon to Pappy and W. Bush and see how far that gets you in the credibility game.

PS--I noticed you've avoided telling us again how the closing of 60,000 factories and millions of jobs lost -- along with the trillions of wealth shipped overseas -- has been good for the USA since 'free' trade deals have been accelerating.

Oh yeah, you did try once -- you said we now have the free choice to shop at Wal-Mart, Dollar stores and eat $1 happy meals.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by reckless

btw, I did provide some facts -- the ones that are true and a result of all this 'free' trade you espouse. W. Bush destroying the US economy led the way for Barack Obama -- and Bush's own steel tariff was not the reason for the destruction W. caused. Keep hitching your wagon to Pappy and W. Bush and see how far that gets you in the credibility game.

I believe in the current lingo, those are referred to as false facts.

The result of Bush's tariffs was a $30 million hit to the economy, according to a lengthy government report from the U.S. International Trade Commission in 2003. Studies by outside groups conclude that the United States lost jobs because of the move: The employment gains in factories that make raw steel were outweighed by job losses in other industries, especially at companies that take raw steel and make it into parts for cars and appliances. To put it another way, it cost about $400,000 per job saved in the steel industry, according to an estimate by the Peterson Institute for International Economics.

There were 200,000 job losses from Bush's steel tariffs, according to a study by the Trade Partnership, a consulting firm that was paid to do the research by the industries that use steel and were hurt the most by the tariff.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.7b999e7e8744

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by reckless

PS--I noticed you've avoided telling us again how the closing of 60,000 factories and millions of jobs lost -- along with the trillions of wealth shipped overseas -- has been good for the USA since 'free' trade deals have been accelerating.

Lost "since" the deals does not mean lost "because" of the deals.

“America has lost nearly one-third of its manufacturing jobs since Nafta and 50,000 factories since China joined the World Trade Organization,” says Mr Trump’s official site, citing research from 2007 by the Economic Policy Institute.

According to this narrative, the US’s trade policies, growing trade deficits with Mexico and Canada, and China’s “unfair subsidy behaviour” are to blame for the US’s “deindustrialisation” and its disappearing middle class.

The US did indeed lose about 5.6m manufacturing jobs between 2000 and 2010. But according to a study by the Center for Business and Economic Research at Ball State University, 85 per cent of these jobs losses are actually attributable to technological change — largely automation — rather than international trade.

https://www.ft.com/content/dec677c0-...5-95d1533d9a62

[Clocker]

Apparently those left-wing moonbats at the Wall Street Journal are Trump haters too. From an editorial about the tariffs at that liberal rag:

The immediate impact will be to make the U.S. an island of high-priced steel and aluminum. The U.S. companies will raise their prices to nearly match the tariffs while snatching some market share. The additional profits will flow to executives in higher bonuses and shareholders, at least until the higher prices hurt their steel- and aluminum-using customers. Then U.S. steel and aluminum makers will be hurt as well.

Mr. Trump seems not to understand that steel-using industries in the U.S. employ some 6.5 million Americans, while steel makers employ about 140,000. Transportation industries, including aircraft and autos, account for about 40% of domestic steel consumption, followed by packaging with 20% and building construction with 15%. All will have to pay higher prices, making them less competitive globally and in the U.S.

Instead of importing steel to make goods in America, many companies will simply import the finished product made from cheaper steel or aluminum abroad. Mr. Trump fancies himself the savior of the U.S. auto industry, but he might note that Ford Motor shares fell 3% Thursday and GM’s fell 4%. U.S. Steel gained 5.8%. Mr. Trump has handed a giant gift to foreign car makers, which will now have a cost advantage over Detroit. How do you think that will play in Michigan in 2020?

https://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2...rs-warn-folly/