Bris "CR" or Race Class

[Big Bill]

Originally Posted by pandy

I've caught a lot of longshots over the years using the higest last Bris RR ratings but the key is to combine other factors to get some sort of comprehensive method that gets the win percentage up high enough without eroding the ROI.

Pandy,

Do you mean the highest last RR of each horse in a race, or each horse's highest RR in its last X number of races?

Big Bill

[upthecreek]

Yesterday 3rd race at Tampa #Burleys Gold coming out of a race where it was given a RR of 112 The Horse also got a CR of 112 yet finishing 7 beaten 8 lengths Hows that possible? What did the winner earn I wonder?

[Robert Goren]

Originally Posted by Oaklawn

One thing that I think is missing from the class ratings is that I don't believe it takes into consideration the margin of victory. In other words, the winner of a race rating of 115 is assigned a 118 class rating no matter the margin of victory. ( I made the numbers up and I could be wrong, so somebody check this).

At one time I thought the exact opposite. I was pretty sure that big margin wins were over rated or that the horse who ran behind a big margin winner were under rated.
It is another thing that BRIS does that looks like it ought to be useful, but I am not sure it actually is. If anything, it might be useful in grading shippers if you become convinced that Bris has got the differences between tracks. I never was. Some research on that might be useful especially if you found they off a bit on a couple of tracks. Let say Bris has the difference between PRX and AQU at 2 pts for a MSW race and you found it to be 0. You're up twice. You are using something few people use and you are up on them because you have improved their number. There may be a spot play using it out there. At least there isn't 20 people out there selling class ratings.

[raybo]

Both the CR and RR are assigned after the race. CR (class rating) is Brisnet's assignment of how each horse performed in a race. RR (race rating), according to their explanation of RR, is the combination of all the CR ratings assigned to all the horses in the field, in that race, so if you had a couple of really poor horses in a race, the RR will not truly reflect the strength of that race. A better approach would be to combine only the CRs of the best contenders in that race, IMO. If they did that, then one could sum the CR and RR and find out what kind of performances horses produced, against what quality of contenders they competed, a better "class/performance" figure, IMO.

[zerosky]

Originally Posted by cutchemist42

I've always wondered this, but also thought that maybe the RR is something that is established after the race is run?

The Race Rating is the average of the horses current class found at the bottom of the Race Summary Report.
The reason it's not given before the race is due to scratches, AE's, MTO's, off tracks etc.

Multicaps used to put it on the race card and so to Allways (I think), I used to calculate it before handicapping a race
but if you just look at the middle 3 or 4 figures it gives you a general idea.

[pandy]

Originally Posted by Big Bill

Pandy,

Do you mean the highest last RR of each horse in a race, or each horse's highest RR in its last X number of races?

Big Bill

I meant the highest last RR. But, this type of number also picks a lot of longshot winners if you use best recent RR. On Trackmaster's class rating, same thing, the horse with the highest recent Trackmaster class often wins at a huge price. Trackmaster has longshot symbols (L, + and b) and these symbols are often placed next to horses that recently, or in their last start, and a lot of these horses win at huge prices. I've seen days when several of them won at big prices. I know because I usually use the Trackmaster exe file to run my Diamond System software and we put the Trackmaster class rating on the printout, and the longshot symbols. For people that play exotics like the Pick 3, etc., top RR on bris or top recent CR on Trackmaster, or horses with the longshot symbols on Trackmaster, are good horses to include if you want a chance to hit a big one.

[raybo]

I think some here are confused as to what Brisnet's "RR" and "CR" are telling you.

Both ratings are assigned "after" the race has been run. The CR for each horse is assigned first, according to the algorithm that Bris uses (call it class if you will, but it is not a typical class rating, IMO). Regardless of what factors are actually used in the calculation, that figure is assigned for each horse after the race. Then, after all the horses in the race have been assigned CR ratings, all those CR ratings are used to assign a "RR" rating for that race. My understanding is that Bris simply averages all the horses' CR ratings to get the RR rating for that race.

So, if the race was highly competitive, the RR will be more accurate, regarding the actual strength of the horses who had the most impact on the running of the race and the final results of that race. If the race was not highly competitive, then the RR will be less accurate, because there could have been some very poor performances from many of the horses in that race. So, unless you know whether the race was highly competitive or not, the RR has very little value, going forward.

In summary, without personal observation and analysis of each paceline you are viewing in the PPs, the CR ratings should carry a much higher value, going forward, versus the RR. If this were not true, then one could simply add CR and RR together and know exactly how strong a horse has been, in each of it's paceline races. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

It is akin to looking at the speed figure without looking at the pace figures. The whole story is not revealed.

[PressThePace]

Originally Posted by raybo

I think some here are confused as to what Brisnet's "RR" and "CR" are telling you.

Both ratings are assigned "after" the race has been run. The CR for each horse is assigned first, according to the algorithm that Bris uses (call it class if you will, but it is not a typical class rating, IMO). Regardless of what factors are actually used in the calculation, that figure is assigned for each horse after the race. Then, after all the horses in the race have been assigned CR ratings, all those CR ratings are used to assign a "RR" rating for that race. My understanding is that Bris simply averages all the horses' CR ratings to get the RR rating for that race.

So, if the race was highly competitive, the RR will be more accurate, regarding the actual strength of the horses who had the most impact on the running of the race and the final results of that race. If the race was not highly competitive, then the RR will be less accurate, because there could have been some very poor performances from many of the horses in that race. So, unless you know whether the race was highly competitive or not, the RR has very little value, going forward.

In summary, without personal observation and analysis of each paceline you are viewing in the PPs, the CR ratings should carry a much higher value, going forward, versus the RR. If this were not true, then one could simply add CR and RR together and know exactly how strong a horse has been, in each of it's paceline races. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

It is akin to looking at the speed figure without looking at the pace figures. The whole story is not revealed.

Absolutely the best written explanation of what the numbers mean and what it means to the handicapper.

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by raybo

I think some here are confused as to what Brisnet's "RR" and "CR" are telling you.

Both ratings are assigned "after" the race has been run. The CR for each horse is assigned first, according to the algorithm that Bris uses (call it class if you will, but it is not a typical class rating, IMO). Regardless of what factors are actually used in the calculation, that figure is assigned for each horse after the race. Then, after all the horses in the race have been assigned CR ratings, all those CR ratings are used to assign a "RR" rating for that race. My understanding is that Bris simply averages all the horses' CR ratings to get the RR rating for that race.

So, if the race was highly competitive, the RR will be more accurate, regarding the actual strength of the horses who had the most impact on the running of the race and the final results of that race. If the race was not highly competitive, then the RR will be less accurate, because there could have been some very poor performances from many of the horses in that race. So, unless you know whether the race was highly competitive or not, the RR has very little value, going forward.

In summary, without personal observation and analysis of each paceline you are viewing in the PPs, the CR ratings should carry a much higher value, going forward, versus the RR. If this were not true, then one could simply add CR and RR together and know exactly how strong a horse has been, in each of it's paceline races. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

It is akin to looking at the speed figure without looking at the pace figures. The whole story is not revealed.

Bris is really new to me and I am just trying to get a feel for it. They do provide a lot of information and so far I am fairly impressed(love their track profile and trainer stats and the prime power is always interesting). The one thing I have no clarity on is based off of the quoted post, how does the RR give a proper representation of "class". In my view, the RR should be determined by coming up with a class rating of each horse in the field based on their prior performances and using that to determine the RR for the field. Todays race should not apply(even if the number is useful for whatever reason, it doesn't strike me as a "class rating" although if someone can explain to me how it is I am open minded.

Now I am going to give an example of a situation where the RR makes absolutely no sense. Coming up at Santa Anita on Thursdays 2nd race. The horse is Burns Turns. On February 22nd she won a 32000 claimer at 7/5 and the race was given a rr of 114. On March 23rd she comes back in an nw1x on the same downhill course albeit a much worse jockey and goes of at 24.90-1 yet the race is given an rr of 114(based off of the 24-1 odds I would assume that race probably should have had a RR of 116 and not 114). I also would question their speed figure for the race as this horse was 2 3/4 behind what I would assume to be a much tougher field and earned an 83 figure while when she won the race at on 2/22 she was given an 88 figure. I would guess the two figures should be about the same(not to mention her actual final time was 2/5's faster on the slower figured race). Now they claim that their class ratings are not based off of speed, so even if it is an error in determining the speed rating, that is not the reason for an error in determining the RR.

I do not really have any experience with these ratings like many of you do, but am curious to hear others thoughts on the case I presented.

While I am on the subject of Bris how to they do they come up with a par speed figure for maiden 2yo fillies of a 91(3rd race Thursday) when they have allowance older fillies and mares earning lower figures than that. Makes no sense at all(any of the good older horsed would be 1/5 against the 2 yo's). Once again, any thoughts?

[fmolf]

the race rating is developed by the strength of the field in that given race.Based on how each horse has performed at that given level.....The class rating is how that horses performance rated against that field of horses in that race....The average competive level is level at which horse has been successful at recently.
race rating simply measures the quality of that field in that race ...this helps you determine which horses have been running against better fields..CR measures the performance of that particular horse in that race.the race rating takes into account each horses record and recent levels of competition and puts a number on it.nothing to do with how race was run.Cr is horses rating after race has been run.

[raybo]

Originally Posted by fmolf

the race rating is developed by the strength of the field in that given race.Based on how each horse has performed at that given level.....The class rating is how that horses performance rated against that field of horses in that race....The average competive level is level at which horse has been successful at recently.
race rating simply measures the quality of that field in that race ...this helps you determine which horses have been running against better fields..CR measures the performance of that particular horse in that race.the race rating takes into account each horses record and recent levels of competition and puts a number on it.nothing to do with how race was run.Cr is horses rating after race has been run.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree about the Bris "RR":

If the bolded portion of the quoted post were true, then the "RR" would be available, pre-race, which it is not. That means that the "RR" assignment takes place after the race, not before, and that it takes into account all the "CR"s earned in that particular race, after the fact. My understanding of the Bris "RR" rating is that it is entirely dependent on the "CR"s that each of the runners earned in that particular race, it is not determined before the race has been run, nor is it independent of the "CR"s earned in the race.

That being said, IMO, the only time the "RR" will be accurate is when most of the field ran, all the way to the wire. If several horses in the field were "out of it" and did not run hard to the wire, then they would receive much lower "CR"s than the others and therefore the subsequent "RR" for that race would be lower, even though the few who did run hard earned good "CR"s. Bris' calculation of their "RR" at least as far as I have been able to ascertain, is based on an average "CR" for that race. Not the best way to develop a true "race rating", IMO.

[Capper Al]

Originally Posted by raybo

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree about the Bris "RR":

If the bolded portion of the quoted post were true, then the "RR" would be available, pre-race, which it is not. That means that the "RR" assignment takes place after the race, not before, and that it takes into account all the "CR"s earned in that particular race, after the fact. My understanding of the Bris "RR" rating is that it is entirely dependent on the "CR"s that each of the runners earned in that particular race, it is not determined before the race has been run, nor is it independent of the "CR"s earned in the race.

That being said, IMO, the only time the "RR" will be accurate is when most of the field ran, all the way to the wire. If several horses in the field were "out of it" and did not run hard to the wire, then they would receive much lower "CR"s than the others and therefore the subsequent "RR" for that race would be lower, even though the few who did run hard earned good "CR"s. Bris' calculation of their "RR" at least as far as I have been able to ascertain, is based on an average "CR" for that race. Not the best way to develop a true "race rating", IMO.

This would suggest to me that BRIS might be using PAR time for the CRs. The winning horse ran a speed above this class, equal to, or below. BRIS RR and CR are useful inputs to one's handicapping. Yet, i'd hope BRIS would use a class evaluation independent of time.

[Capper Al]

On this topic, I will be testing my generated RRs and CRs soon here in the forum. Over and above strike rate (wins), i'll be checking for compatibility with RR and an improved CR.

[BIG49010]

One nice thing you can use these ratings for are European shippers, which
Bris makes a rating for all the races. I have seen some decent prices over the years with top rated horses.

[raybo]

Originally Posted by Capper Al

This would suggest to me that BRIS might be using PAR time for the CRs. The winning horse ran a speed above this class, equal to, or below. BRIS RR and CR are useful inputs to one's handicapping. Yet, i'd hope BRIS would use a class evaluation independent of time.

Al, I don't know what the Bris algorithm is for their "CR", so I don't know if it includes pars, but knowing Bris (all their proprietary data being database/computer generated), it probably does. But, I also don't know what kind of pars they are, if that is indeed the case, it may not be a speed par for all I know.