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03-01-2021, 12:26 AM
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 915
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Why have race charts always been this way?
When you look at a horse's PPs it says how many lengths behind they were at any point in the race, but full race charts always show how many lengths ahead of the next horse a horse was at each point of call. Wouldn't it make for better charts if each point of call said how many lengths behind the front runner each horse was at these points? Does anyone know if Equibase has ever considered switching to this method? To me I'd think this method would make charts a better tool for understanding race dynamics.
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03-01-2021, 08:32 AM
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 647
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I really don't know why they have always been that way but I look at Brisnet race results and I always look at the alternative charts instead of the traditional charts. They list the lengths behind at each point of call. I too prefer this way of looking at the race results charts.
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03-01-2021, 08:52 AM
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 531
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Before they had computers readily available to figure that out, someone would have had to do that by hand. Just think of all the mistakes that would have been made. They used to misspell just about everything back then on the computer charts. I had a program that would figure out lengths behind.
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03-01-2021, 09:11 AM
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#4
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Equibase does list a "pp style" chart these days, just have to scroll down a bit.
I think it came to be because that is how chart callers call the data, the gaps between horses, not the total behind the leader.
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03-01-2021, 10:11 AM
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
I think it came to be because that is how chart callers call the data, the gaps between horses, not the total behind the leader.
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Quite correct, sir. And the narrative gets pounded out immediately.
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03-01-2021, 10:56 AM
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,612
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I've been asking for this for DRF/formulator charts for a long time. You should be able to toggle back and forth between both options. The PP version gives you a better feel of the race flow.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
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03-01-2021, 11:16 PM
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
Equibase does list a "pp style" chart these days, just have to scroll down a bit.
I think it came to be because that is how chart callers call the data, the gaps between horses, not the total behind the leader.
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I couldn't find the pp style chart on the equibase site, do you have a link? Is it part of free products or premium?
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03-01-2021, 11:20 PM
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#8
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 16,912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
I've been asking for this for DRF/formulator charts for a long time. You should be able to toggle back and forth between both options. The PP version gives you a better feel of the race flow.
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HSH has always done it that way.
Like most of you, I could just never understand why anyone would do anything else.
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03-01-2021, 11:39 PM
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#9
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SG4
I couldn't find the pp style chart on the equibase site, do you have a link? Is it part of free products or premium?
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It is part of every free pdf chart, just have to scroll down a bit.
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03-02-2021, 06:04 PM
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#10
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The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,861
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BRIS charts come both ways - you select regular or alternate style.
I always used the alternate (PP) style.
__________________
Who does the Racing Form Detective like in this one?
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03-02-2021, 07:19 PM
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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They literally have "always been this way". Here's a chart from 1900:
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03-02-2021, 07:43 PM
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 18,971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SG4
When you look at a horse's PPs it says how many lengths behind they were at any point in the race, but full race charts always show how many lengths ahead of the next horse a horse was at each point of call. Wouldn't it make for better charts if each point of call said how many lengths behind the front runner each horse was at these points? Does anyone know if Equibase has ever considered switching to this method? To me I'd think this method would make charts a better tool for understanding race dynamics.
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No matter which charts you’re using the majority of players don’t really understand the true race dynamics anyway because they’re being misinterpreted. (Like many other subjective aspects of this game).
Those that do claim to understand it, obviously ignore the basic facts about object acceleration and deceleration because they’re simply relying on the formula for Velocity. “Velocity” is only a segment of the real dynamic of the accel/decel motion formula just like acceleration is only part of the “Force” formula.
I’m not going go into all of this again because I have no real interest at this point in my life trying to apply an exact science to a game that involves so much more that’s simply related to an animal’s mental and physical condition (and those who care for them).
I would only suggest that if someone is really interested in getting a clearer picture what’s involved in actual racing dynamics that they might want to take a peek at a thread I started a while ago called -
A Critique of Speed: Fallacies in Creating Accurate Speed Figures
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...d.php?t=148582
Of course you’ll notice that there will be some who may disagree with my comments, but ignore the facts at your own detriment, if you’re honestly trying to understand the motion dynamics of previously run race.
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03-02-2021, 09:29 PM
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#13
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
BRIS charts come both ways - you select regular or alternate style.
I always used the alternate (PP) style.
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Same with TimeformUS, just a quick toggle.
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03-02-2021, 10:20 PM
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
It is part of every free pdf chart, just have to scroll down a bit.
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Thanks...jeez, I must've scrolled past this part of the charts mindlessly thousands of times & never realized it was there
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03-02-2021, 10:36 PM
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#15
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 518
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Just use it as an indicator of how effective and accurate the charts are. I wouldn’t be using lengths if you’re not making your own charts via something automated that doesn’t take the human eye into context.
Think about reliable a chart is that calls lengths rather than distance traveled into account
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