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Old 04-09-2019, 12:40 PM   #16
thaskalos
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Perhaps the title of this thread should be...Do you believe in a "higher power"?
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Old 04-09-2019, 12:53 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Tom View Post
How can you thing God will judge us on our worth if He continually intervenes in our lives and aids our choices?

Like I said, we were given a conscience to tell us who is bad and what is bad.

When I meet my Maker, I have to account for those choices.
Me, alone, no priest, no lawyer. I have to keep track of what is right and wrong every day, not just get "born again" at the end.
So...when you die and you meet your Maker, and he asks you, "Why, Tom, should I let you into my perfect, holy heaven", what will your answer be? What will you say to try to justify yourself?
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Old 04-09-2019, 02:55 PM   #18
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I am atheist...
I would be curious to know if you are willing to share, why you believe or do not believe.
Even though I believe in God I find nothing wrong with atheism. Because many atheists have more heart than believers. The bottom line for me is LOVE. No love, and there is no point in living. Love is what makes a person happy in whatever form it takes, be it with a person, place or thing or ultimately within one's self.

The reason there is so much discord in the world is because people lack love in their lives and underestimate its importance. We need food and water to survive and we also need love to grow in a positive direction. Without love, one grows in a negative direction. Its that simple. Because love is not a physical necessity for survival, it is deemed "optional". Big mistake.

What I said is just my own opinion and can be cast aside if you disagree. So I present you with two scientific facts for the existence of God.

1) NDE's can no longer be dismissed as "imagination" or the brain's lack of oxygen etc. There are scientific studies that have been done that prove that NDE's are real. This science is yet to be accepted in the general scientific community just as many scientific facts and studies were slow to be assimilated in history.

2) Scientists have not been able to prove that "consciousness" is created by the brain. There is no link anyone can show to prove this. This "consciousness" is what seems to carry over after death in NDE's. The data that was in the brain seems relegated to a very small role to zero during an NDE. Most people who have NDE"s do not want to come back to this life because they experience love and peace on an extraordinary level not known on Earth. The last words from Steve Jobs as he died were "Oh Wow,Oh Wow,Oh Wow".

So if consciousness is not created by the brain then it is a connection to the metaphysical and the brain is our connection to the physical. This alone would prove that we are more than physical beings or that we only have physical properties.

Last edited by Light; 04-09-2019 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 04-09-2019, 02:56 PM   #19
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I am a devout Christian. Before that, I was an Orthodox Jew. (Actually what is called "Lubavitcher."

Always a searcher, spent limited time in many religions (mostly as a dilettante), and converted to Judaism at age 28. (Mom was Christian, sort of, anyway. Dad was Jewish- from Ireland.)

Thus, I was nothing, so I converted. There was a 15-year gap between my Judaism experience and becoming a Christian. BTW, I did not stop being Jewish. I just stopped practicing it. In fact, up to 2 months before becoming Christian, I was actually ANTI-CHRISTIAN.

When I became a Christian, 23 years ago, everything changed for me.

What changed? Well, a couple of years later I stopped worrying. How many of you can say, "I have not worried even once in over 20 years?"

And that includes in the rough times, as well as the sweet times. It includes fearing I had cancer and discovering my insurance had lapsed and having to wait 3 months for the reinstatement before going to a doctor. (That was actually a life-altering experience.)

Now, I know that many on PA - and probably most in this thread - will give me your logical answer, that goes something like telling me it is just a placebo for me.

Even if you are right, would no worry for 20 years be a nice addition to your life?

What, you say? You don't want to believe in something phony? (I never said that.)

First, belief is a choice. I did not wake up one day and suddenly discover that I was a believer.

I was drawn in by life experiences. Unbelievable life experiences. Miracle-like, they were.

When you string a few of those together, you stop saying, "Well, what wonderful coincidences these occurrences are!"

True believers - especially older ones -will probably be able to share stories of such impossible-sounding stories. If one is not biased against belief, the entire God as a supernatural being-thing is just not so far-fetched.

Such a story...
A woman at church approached a young man with a paper bag full of money. She said, "Are you Jeff?" (She did not know him.)

She went on, "God told me to give you this money," and hands him the bag.

He looked into it and saw a lot of money. Certainly thousands of dollars.

He declined, saying that she must have the wrong guy.

Every week, for 3 straight weeks, this repeated. Finally, he took the money, planning on keeping it until she came to her senses.

The next day, he finds out that the truck he'd taken-over-payments on, was being repossessed. He'd been making the payments to a "friend" who had not been forwarding those payments.

Now the finance company wanted the truck.

The amount of money in the bag, which was something like $5,800, was less than a dollar over the amount due on the vehicle.

We actually know Jeff, and can verify the story completely.
Some coincidence, right?

We've seen and heard other FIRST HAND stories just like this one. Even experienced one that, for a Believer, would fall into the category of "miracle," (not in the Catholic, saint-driven approach).

Why would you not reject it as coincidence? You are not a believer. And many are anti-believers. That's fine.

And to be clear, I am a bit of a "Calvinist." Actually, I am what is commonly called a 4.5-point Calvinist. (There are actually 5 key points, none of which I will not bore you with here.)

The key point of Calvinism is that God/Jesus call those who have been chosen and that the "call" is irresistible.

Before you go off on me and say, "So, you were chosen! Aren't you just wonderful?" No, I am not.

Nobody knows why God chooses who he does. If anything, it could be because he picks those who are more needy. But let it be clear that it is not driven by anything that I did or am doing on my part.

THE POINT OF THIS is that our belief system is such that we believe God is the one with all the power to attract you, and we have none. Absolutely zero.

As such, we have no need to evangelize. That's up to God.

My job is to simply be available for His use. What does that mean?

The call of God is irresistible, but often a person is sent to help with the message. My experience - which has been very rare; twice in my life - is that I trip over said person. If I am aware enough I take action. Once I didn't and the lesson was learned.

Now, a word about Mr. Boxcar. He is the absolute king of biblical knowledge around here. Put me up against him, and I would fail miserably. LOL

But here's the thing... Biblical knowledge does not make for biblical maturity! In fact, amazingly, it is often a stumbling block!

On those rare occasions when I have spoken against BC's way in the past, I simply ask the question, "Where's the love?"

It is not about condemning people for what they DO or DON'T DO. That's not our job. It is up to God.

Sure, there is one reference in the bible that speaks of approaching a fellow Christian with an issue and lovingly bringing it up. That is the accountability clause, so to speak.

But, it is not about preaching.

I will close with this:
Those of you with staunch negative feelings about God, will not have your minds changed by those with lots of bible thumping. That is just a waste of time.

Neither will a REAL BELIEVER have their mind changed by an unbeliever.

Thus, both the believers and the unbelievers are where they should be. At least for today. If God decides to call you, you will respond positively; even the most negative of you. For the rest it doesn't matter.


Footnote:
Our ministry if discipleship. That means we teach people how to be Christian. It is referred to as Spiritual Parenting.

We have spiritual parents who discipled us. (That is why our experience has been so very different.)

We have spiritual children who are also the spiritual grandchildren of our spiritual parents.

It is certainly bible based, but not bible-thumpy. It is about understanding what God wants. (We think we have most of it right. LOL)

Remember, reading the bible is not actually a requirement. How do I know? Well, Jesus predates Guttenberg by a long time.

It is free.

If Christian has a sincere interest, just reach out directly.
DaveSchwReno@gmail.com
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Old 04-09-2019, 05:13 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz View Post
I am a devout Christian. Before that, I was an Orthodox Jew. (Actually what is called "Lubavitcher."

Always a searcher, spent limited time in many religions (mostly as a dilettante), and converted to Judaism at age 28. (Mom was Christian, sort of, anyway. Dad was Jewish- from Ireland.)

Thus, I was nothing, so I converted. There was a 15-year gap between my Judaism experience and becoming a Christian. BTW, I did not stop being Jewish. I just stopped practicing it. In fact, up to 2 months before becoming Christian, I was actually ANTI-CHRISTIAN.

When I became a Christian, 23 years ago, everything changed for me.

What changed? Well, a couple of years later I stopped worrying. How many of you can say, "I have not worried even once in over 20 years?"

And that includes in the rough times, as well as the sweet times. It includes fearing I had cancer and discovering my insurance had lapsed and having to wait 3 months for the reinstatement before going to a doctor. (That was actually a life-altering experience.)

Now, I know that many on PA - and probably most in this thread - will give me your logical answer, that goes something like telling me it is just a placebo for me.

Even if you are right, would no worry for 20 years be a nice addition to your life?

What, you say? You don't want to believe in something phony? (I never said that.)

First, belief is a choice. I did not wake up one day and suddenly discover that I was a believer.

I was drawn in by life experiences. Unbelievable life experiences. Miracle-like, they were.

When you string a few of those together, you stop saying, "Well, what wonderful coincidences these occurrences are!"

True believers - especially older ones -will probably be able to share stories of such impossible-sounding stories. If one is not biased against belief, the entire God as a supernatural being-thing is just not so far-fetched.

Such a story...
A woman at church approached a young man with a paper bag full of money. She said, "Are you Jeff?" (She did not know him.)

She went on, "God told me to give you this money," and hands him the bag.

He looked into it and saw a lot of money. Certainly thousands of dollars.

He declined, saying that she must have the wrong guy.

Every week, for 3 straight weeks, this repeated. Finally, he took the money, planning on keeping it until she came to her senses.

The next day, he finds out that the truck he'd taken-over-payments on, was being repossessed. He'd been making the payments to a "friend" who had not been forwarding those payments.

Now the finance company wanted the truck.

The amount of money in the bag, which was something like $5,800, was less than a dollar over the amount due on the vehicle.

We actually know Jeff, and can verify the story completely.
Some coincidence, right?

We've seen and heard other FIRST HAND stories just like this one. Even experienced one that, for a Believer, would fall into the category of "miracle," (not in the Catholic, saint-driven approach).

Why would you not reject it as coincidence? You are not a believer. And many are anti-believers. That's fine.

And to be clear, I am a bit of a "Calvinist." Actually, I am what is commonly called a 4.5-point Calvinist. (There are actually 5 key points, none of which I will not bore you with here.)

The key point of Calvinism is that God/Jesus call those who have been chosen and that the "call" is irresistible.

Before you go off on me and say, "So, you were chosen! Aren't you just wonderful?" No, I am not.

Nobody knows why God chooses who he does. If anything, it could be because he picks those who are more needy. But let it be clear that it is not driven by anything that I did or am doing on my part.

THE POINT OF THIS is that our belief system is such that we believe God is the one with all the power to attract you, and we have none. Absolutely zero.

As such, we have no need to evangelize. That's up to God.

My job is to simply be available for His use. What does that mean?

The call of God is irresistible, but often a person is sent to help with the message. My experience - which has been very rare; twice in my life - is that I trip over said person. If I am aware enough I take action. Once I didn't and the lesson was learned.

Now, a word about Mr. Boxcar. He is the absolute king of biblical knowledge around here. Put me up against him, and I would fail miserably. LOL

But here's the thing... Biblical knowledge does not make for biblical maturity! In fact, amazingly, it is often a stumbling block!

On those rare occasions when I have spoken against BC's way in the past, I simply ask the question, "Where's the love?"

It is not about condemning people for what they DO or DON'T DO. That's not our job. It is up to God.

Sure, there is one reference in the bible that speaks of approaching a fellow Christian with an issue and lovingly bringing it up. That is the accountability clause, so to speak.

But, it is not about preaching.

I will close with this:
Those of you with staunch negative feelings about God, will not have your minds changed by those with lots of bible thumping. That is just a waste of time.

Neither will a REAL BELIEVER have their mind changed by an unbeliever.

Thus, both the believers and the unbelievers are where they should be. At least for today. If God decides to call you, you will respond positively; even the most negative of you. For the rest it doesn't matter.


Footnote:
Our ministry if discipleship. That means we teach people how to be Christian. It is referred to as Spiritual Parenting.

We have spiritual parents who discipled us. (That is why our experience has been so very different.)

We have spiritual children who are also the spiritual grandchildren of our spiritual parents.

It is certainly bible based, but not bible-thumpy. It is about understanding what God wants. (We think we have most of it right. LOL)

Remember, reading the bible is not actually a requirement. How do I know? Well, Jesus predates Guttenberg by a long time.

It is free.

If Christian has a sincere interest, just reach out directly.
DaveSchwReno@gmail.com
This is a brief response to Dave's take on "preaching" the gospel. Sharing God's love and plan of redemption with the world was one of Israel's
key roles this chosen covenant nation was supposed to play to the surrounding nations once they entered the Promised Land. But they failed miserably. Instead of becoming a light to all the nations, they joined in their idolatry, breaking their covenant with God.

Jesus finally comes unto the world stage about 2,000 years ago. Jesus became everything the covenant nation of Israel was supposed to become but failed at. In fact, Jesus is the antitype to the nation of Israel in that he perfectly fulfilled Israel's mission. He kept the Law of Moses perfectly. Israel failed miserably.

He willingly became his Father's [suffering] servant to not only Israel but to the nations of the world. But Israel, under the Law of Moses, served no one but their own selfish interests.

Jesus came to be the Light of World, and as this Light taught and preached his Father's revelation (i.e. the Word of God). Jesus, in fact, is so inextricably bound up with the Written Word, that He himself is called The Word and the Living Word.

There are other ways, too, Jesus was the antitype to Israel but perhaps at another time, those could be explored.

Before the risen Christ ascended into heaven, he charged his disciples to go out into the world to preach the gospel and make disciples of all nations. In fact, even before this, Jesus sent out the 12 then the 70 to preach the gospel to the House of Israel, as the precursors to global evangelism.

In the Book of Acts at Pentecost, the disciples immediately began to fulfill the great commission of global evangelism. As Jesus specifically directed them, they began teaching and preaching in Jerusalem, then throughout Judea, into Samaria and indeed eventually to the utter most parts of the earth. In short, preaching and teaching the Gospel is not mere advice or some kind of religious option. It is indeed mandated in scripture. And there is a reason why.

Dave "boasts" that he's a 4.5 pt. Calvinist. I've got him beat. I'm a 5-star Calvinist because it's sound biblical theology. So, how is it that Dave and I see evangelism very differently? I'd say the difference is the Word of God. Dave, by use of his own reason, has reasoned that because God freely and sovereignly chooses who He will save and who He won't, that somehow God's sovereign will in this matter precludes any need for evangelism. At first blush, this has the appearance of sound logic. But sadly, the human logic has become derailed because it's not guided by the "tracks" of the Spirit and the Word of God. If it were, Dave would know that the same God who has decreed the ends from the beginning also decreed the means to those ends.

Rom 10:11-15
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; 13 for "Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!"
NASB
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Old 04-09-2019, 05:24 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
This is a brief response to Dave's take on "preaching" the gospel. Sharing God's love and plan of redemption with the world was one of Israel's
key roles this chosen covenant nation was supposed to play to the surrounding nations once they entered the Promised Land. But they failed miserably. Instead of becoming a light to all the nations, they joined in their idolatry, breaking their covenant with God.

Jesus finally comes unto the world stage about 2,000 years ago. Jesus became everything the covenant nation of Israel was supposed to become but failed at. In fact, Jesus is the antitype to the nation of Israel in that he perfectly fulfilled Israel's mission. He kept the Law of Moses perfectly. Israel failed miserably.

He willingly became his Father's [suffering] servant to not only Israel but to the nations of the world. But Israel, under the Law of Moses, served no one but their own selfish interests.

Jesus came to be the Light of World, and as this Light taught and preached his Father's revelation (i.e. the Word of God). Jesus, in fact, is so inextricably bound up with the Written Word, that He himself is called The Word and the Living Word.

There are other ways, too, Jesus was the antitype to Israel but perhaps at another time, those could be explored.

Before the risen Christ ascended into heaven, he charged his disciples to go out into the world to preach the gospel and make disciples of all nations. In fact, even before this, Jesus sent out the 12 then the 70 to preach the gospel to the House of Israel, as the precursors to global evangelism.

In the Book of Acts at Pentecost, the disciples immediately began to fulfill the great commission of global evangelism. As Jesus specifically directed them, they began teaching and preaching in Jerusalem, then throughout Judea, into Samaria and indeed eventually to the utter most parts of the earth. In short, preaching and teaching the Gospel is not mere advice or some kind of religious option. It is indeed mandated in scripture. And there is a reason why.

Dave "boasts" that he's a 4.5 pt. Calvinist. I've got him beat. I'm a 5-star Calvinist because it's sound biblical theology. So, how is it that Dave and I see evangelism very differently? I'd say the difference is the Word of God. Dave, by use of his own reason, has reasoned that because God freely and sovereignly chooses who He will save and who He won't, that somehow God's sovereign will in this matter precludes any need for evangelism. At first blush, this has the appearance of sound logic. But sadly, the human logic has become derailed because it's not guided by the "tracks" of the Spirit and the Word of God. If it were, Dave would know that the same God who has decreed the ends from the beginning also decreed the means to those ends.

Rom 10:11-15
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; 13 for "Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!"
NASB
If this is a brief response...then I don't want to see the lengthy one.
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Old 04-09-2019, 05:27 PM   #22
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If this is a brief response...then I don't want to see the lengthy one.
So solly, Mr. Chan.
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Old 04-09-2019, 07:23 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
Dave "boasts" that he's a 4.5 pt. Calvinist. I've got him beat. I'm a 5-star Calvinist because it's sound biblical theology. So, how is it that Dave and I see evangelism very differently? I'd say the difference is the Word of God. Dave, by use of his own reason, has reasoned that because God freely and sovereignly chooses who He will save and who He won't, that somehow God's sovereign will in this matter precludes any need for evangelism. At first blush, this has the appearance of sound logic. But sadly, the human logic has become derailed because it's not guided by the "tracks" of the Spirit and the Word of God. If it were, Dave would know that the same God who has decreed the ends from the beginning also decreed the means to those ends.
(I will make every attempt to not get deeply embroiled as it serves no purpose.)

First, if anyone else sees what I posted as boastful, then I have really missed the mark.

Again, I repeat, I've done nothing to attain any of this. All I know is that I experience it.

I never said that evangelism was unnecessary. I said that it was not up to me to choose who to speak to.

Now, Boxcar, there is no doubt that you know the bible backwards and forwards. However, it appears to me that you see it as a rule book. That is so very Hebrew of you.


THE ONLY POINT THAT MATTERS
That whole cut-and-dried rule book approach inevitably leads to a DO LIST and a DON'T LIST. That, logically, leads to an guilt-ridden and unhappy life.

What I learned via discipleship (and am still learning - as I still occasionally take issues to my spiritual father after 23 years) - What I learned was that the character of God is what is most important.

One of the key points of God's character is that HE IS THE PERFECT PARENT. (Something that none of us ever experienced.)

Bible thumping people (and pastors) learn the bible. It becomes all about the DO LIST and the DON'T LIST, as opposed to the RELATIONSHIP between a father and child.

Most Christians that I have known in my life go through life with the feeling that if they screw up God will cause the roof to fall in on them. That is not how the Perfect Father would treat his children.

The emphasis in the old testament was definitely fire and brimstone. God was always smiting people. In fact, coming from Judaism to Christianity, that was the most difficult thing to understand. What was this whole God-is-love-thing, anyway?

Back to the roof caving in. Most of you are fathers. If your son was screwing up, you do not crush him. You want him to admit his mistakes, be contrite, and commit to not doing it again.

Most of all, you want to restore fellowship between the two of you because without being in fellowship, the teaching component is pretty much unavailable.

That is what the relationship with God is all about.

As for sin, there is just no point in concentrating on sinning less, because you will just never overcome it.

Besides, that is not really what God wants.

What he wants is for us to be transformed as in the graphic below.



Instead of sweating the sin, instead over time, our POV on life will become more like God's. As that happens, it is logical that sin will lessen.

At times God will call to our attention a particular sin and ask for it to be addressed now. If (or when) we ignore it, he begins to turn up the heat. As the temperature goes higher, eventually it becomes an issue that places us out of fellowship with Him.

The state of fellowship is known as "abiding." When we are not abiding, we may lose many of the "fruits of the spirit." (You can Google that.)

FINAL POINT
See how there is no condemnation in this? That's because it is a parental relationship that is based upon LOVE rather than FEAR.

That's the Jesus Christ relationship that I know and experience.

Best to you all.

Dave
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Old 04-09-2019, 09:27 PM   #24
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(I will make every attempt to not get deeply embroiled as it serves no purpose.)

First, if anyone else sees what I posted as boastful, then I have really missed the mark.

Again, I repeat, I've done nothing to attain any of this. All I know is that I experience it.

I never said that evangelism was unnecessary. I said that it was not up to me to choose who to speak to.

Now, Boxcar, there is no doubt that you know the bible backwards and forwards. However, it appears to me that you see it as a rule book. That is so very Hebrew of you.


THE ONLY POINT THAT MATTERS
That whole cut-and-dried rule book approach inevitably leads to a DO LIST and a DON'T LIST. That, logically, leads to an guilt-ridden and unhappy life.

What I learned via discipleship (and am still learning - as I still occasionally take issues to my spiritual father after 23 years) - What I learned was that the character of God is what is most important.

One of the key points of God's character is that HE IS THE PERFECT PARENT. (Something that none of us ever experienced.)

Bible thumping people (and pastors) learn the bible. It becomes all about the DO LIST and the DON'T LIST, as opposed to the RELATIONSHIP between a father and child.

Most Christians that I have known in my life go through life with the feeling that if they screw up God will cause the roof to fall in on them. That is not how the Perfect Father would treat his children.

The emphasis in the old testament was definitely fire and brimstone. God was always smiting people. In fact, coming from Judaism to Christianity, that was the most difficult thing to understand. What was this whole God-is-love-thing, anyway?

Back to the roof caving in. Most of you are fathers. If your son was screwing up, you do not crush him. You want him to admit his mistakes, be contrite, and commit to not doing it again.

Most of all, you want to restore fellowship between the two of you because without being in fellowship, the teaching component is pretty much unavailable.

That is what the relationship with God is all about.

As for sin, there is just no point in concentrating on sinning less, because you will just never overcome it.

Besides, that is not really what God wants.

What he wants is for us to be transformed as in the graphic below.



Instead of sweating the sin, instead over time, our POV on life will become more like God's. As that happens, it is logical that sin will lessen.

At times God will call to our attention a particular sin and ask for it to be addressed now. If (or when) we ignore it, he begins to turn up the heat. As the temperature goes higher, eventually it becomes an issue that places us out of fellowship with Him.

The state of fellowship is known as "abiding." When we are not abiding, we may lose many of the "fruits of the spirit." (You can Google that.)

FINAL POINT
See how there is no condemnation in this? That's because it is a parental relationship that is based upon LOVE rather than FEAR.

That's the Jesus Christ relationship that I know and experience.

Best to you all.

Dave
You make the bible sound like it's nothing more than a book of good fatherly advice.

As Jesus said, "Why do you call me LORD, and not DO what I say"?

Or..."Not everyone who says to me 'LORD, LORD' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who DOES the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Mat 7:21)

You might also want to read the Parable of the Talents, etc., etc.

Your position regarding evangelism is typical of a hyper-Calvinist,who basically views all the work of evangelism as falling solely on God's shoulders. While it is true that Salvation is God's work, this is only a half truth. For just as God preordained in eternity past who He will effectively call, justify and glorify, it is equally as true that He has also ordained the the various means to achieving His ends, e.g. intercessory prayer, gospel preaching and evangelism -- all carried out by God's priests, i.e. His Church!

One of the really big problems I have with hyper-Calvinism is that it's downright cold-hearted. I cannot personally understand how a child of God who loves God, knows that God has saved him, has experienced many temporal and spiritual blessings from the hand of his Heavenly Father, has had many prayers answered and knows what his exceedingly great reward is in the next life, cannot be motivated and moved by the love of God within him to not want to take advantage of every opportunity to share the Gospel of the Kingdom with as many lost and dying souls as possible. How can such a person keep the really Good News of God's exceedingly great salvation so quiet and under wraps? In your case, is it because you had direct revelation from God like Paul did on the Road to Damascus? God didn't send anyone to you to preach the gospel?

As Jesus also taught, "If you love Me, you will keep my commandments." (Jn 14:15) There is no greater motivation for obeying God than having God's love shed abroad in our hearts, so that we in turn can express his love within toward our neighbor. And anyone who truly loves God will never find any of His commandments burdensome (1Jn 5:3)

You speak of your experiences with God, so permit me to share one of my mine. When I began searching for God over 30 years, I prayed to him in very specific terms. I told him in my prayer that if he's hearing me, and he knows my heart, then he knows that I'm not going to go from church to church trying to find the truth, especially because of my poor experiences with the Catholic Church. I told him that if he's real and he's listening, he'll have to send someone to me or point me to a specific church. Long story short: He eventually put me in the path of a Christian who in turn sent me to a church where I struck up a relationship with a wonderful, kind, gentle, patient and loving pastor. This pastor eventually led me to the Lord.

But here's the real "punch line" to this true story: When I was a kid, I grew up having a rebellious anti-authority attitude towards all authority figures. And I carried this chip on my shoulder up to the day of my salvation. God is certainly greater than our hearts, and he knew exactly what kind of person I needed to meet to win me over. He put me in the path of someone who was totally antithetical to the types of people I frowned upon all my life.

It is not legalistic to obey God's commands out of our love for Him. Quite the contrary! God so loves his children that after he justifies us, his holy resolve is to sanctify us -- to deliver us from the power of sin. God refuses to have any slaves to sin in his family!. Christ freed his people from the bondage of sin. This is why the apostle John tells us that those born of God cannot continue in sin (1Jn 3:9)!

One more thing: I disagree with your take on the OT. God's love and grace and mercy is seen everywhere in the OT.

Shalom!
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Old 04-09-2019, 10:01 PM   #25
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1) NDE's can no longer be dismissed as "imagination" or the brain's lack of oxygen etc. There are scientific studies that have been done that prove that NDE's are real. This science is yet to be accepted in the general scientific community just as many scientific facts and studies were slow to be assimilated in history.

2) Scientists have not been able to prove that "consciousness" is created by the brain. There is no link anyone can show to prove this. This "consciousness" is what seems to carry over after death in NDE's. The data that was in the brain seems relegated to a very small role to zero during an NDE. Most people who have NDE"s do not want to come back to this life because they experience love and peace on an extraordinary level not known on Earth. The last words from Steve Jobs as he died were "Oh Wow,Oh Wow,Oh Wow".

So if consciousness is not created by the brain then it is a connection to the metaphysical and the brain is our connection to the physical. This alone would prove that we are more than physical beings or that we only have physical properties.
I know two people who "died" and were brought back. Both of their experiences sounded very similar. One could "see" from above, the paramedics working on him to bring him back and my other friend could "see" from above, the doctors working frantically to bring him back on the operating table. The second person told the doctors when he woke up that he knew his heart had stopped during the operation and they were shocked when he described exactly what took place. Both said they didn't want to come back.
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Old 04-09-2019, 11:34 PM   #26
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I know two people who "died" and were brought back. Both of their experiences sounded very similar. One could "see" from above, the paramedics working on him to bring him back and my other friend could "see" from above, the doctors working frantically to bring him back on the operating table. The second person told the doctors when he woke up that he knew his heart had stopped during the operation and they were shocked when he described exactly what took place. Both said they didn't want to come back.
Pretty amazing. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 04-09-2019, 11:59 PM   #27
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1) NDE's can no longer be dismissed as "imagination" or the brain's lack of oxygen etc. There are scientific studies that have been done that prove that NDE's are real.
Can you name the scientists who conducted such studies? Can you name the journals and dates of publication in which they published their studies?
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Old 04-10-2019, 12:24 AM   #28
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I know two people who "died" and were brought back. Both of their experiences sounded very similar. One could "see" from above, the paramedics working on him to bring him back and my other friend could "see" from above, the doctors working frantically to bring him back on the operating table. The second person told the doctors when he woke up that he knew his heart had stopped during the operation and they were shocked when he described exactly what took place. Both said they didn't want to come back.
Yes. I too have met and interviewed two people with almost identical reports.
I interviewed both, and believed what they said. In fact, I had a tape recording of one and can't find it. Very convincing stuff.
But "Near Death Experiences" are not Death itself.
I would never pooh-pooh anyone who reports that sort of experience.
Thank you xtb;... for posting that.
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Old 04-10-2019, 12:57 AM   #29
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Can you name the scientists who conducted such studies? Can you name the journals and dates of publication in which they published their studies?
To start, you should be aware that the pioneers of the field are:

Elisabeth Kübler-Ross who wrote "On Death and Dying" in 1969. She was a major force behind the establishment of the Hospice System in the United States today and

Raymond A. Moody who wrote "Life after Life" in 1975 and coined the term NDE

There are many studies that have been done since Ross's work. Too numerous to mention but this link will get you familiar with some of them. Mainly the studies by the Near-death studies, and the International association for Near-death studies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_studies
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Old 04-10-2019, 09:59 AM   #30
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Yes. I too have met and interviewed two people with almost identical reports.
I interviewed both, and believed what they said. In fact, I had a tape recording of one and can't find it. Very convincing stuff.
But "Near Death Experiences" are not Death itself.
I would never pooh-pooh anyone who reports that sort of experience.
Thank you xtb;... for posting that.
Exactly! Almost dead ain't dead!
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