why choosePTC

[Premier Turf Club]

Originally Posted by Ted Craven

Maybe this is a good place to ask non-US customers of PTC (or Ian): how are your winning wagers treated which would otherwise be 'signers' or for which withholding would apply (e.g. > 300-1). It's my understanding that non-residents are subject to a flat 30% withholding in such cases. I know I can get that back on my annual tax return (e.g. Canada-US tax treaty) but...

Mostly I wager in the Win Pools, but I hit a few nice exactas and trifectas this year either through HPI or on-track in Canada, which I think would have been worth less via PTC (?)

Thanks.

Ted

There is no withholding on tickets for non-US residents. For U.S. residents all pertinent IRS withholding rules apply, unfortunately.

[rrbauer]

Originally Posted by Bobzilla

If I'm reading you correctly you're of the opinion that, due to demographics, the industry sees no true potential for long term growth and thus is more concerned with squeezing as much as they can now from an older fan base, who might have a higher elasticity of demand for racing than the younger crowd, before they die.

You don't have to look any further than their behavior. Take everything they say with "a grain of salt" and take everything they do as if it were gold. If you put them in charge of a "going out of business" sale, you would find advertising plastered all over the place announcing "up to 50% off" and when you got inside you would find the prices marked up.

My suggestion to someone your age would be to start looking around for other uses of your time (and money). If they (not the infamous "they", but the ones running the show) really knew how to generate growth don't you think it would've happened? If they really wanted to improve the customers' experience don't you think it would've been done? When they spend more money for lobbyists in their quest for subsidies, than they spend to improve their product, what does that tell you about where you fit in this game?

[Ted Craven]

Originally Posted by Premier Turf Club

There is no withholding on tickets for non-US residents. For U.S. residents all pertinent IRS withholding rules apply, unfortunately.

Ian, thanks, great news! Resolved that in 2009 PTC gets all my wagers for tracks they handle, though I'll still use HPI for the others until they get picked up at PTC.

Ted

[happy1]

Please explain how Tracknet can set takeouts, from my understanding they have ZERO to do with takeout.

Originally Posted by Jeff P

Are you currently getting a rebate? If not - why not?

Do you live in one of the following states or Canada?

AL AR CT DE DC FL IL IN KS KY LA ME MD MA MT NH NY NC OH OR PA RI SD TN TX VT VA WA WV WI WY

If so consider signing up for an account at Premier Turf Club.

If lower takeout is something you want - it is my opinion that rebates are the treatment of choice for you. I recently had a phone conversation with Barry Meadow. We both agreed that being a winning player isn't always about whose software or pace figures you use. Sometimes getting the best deal (rebates) is your first best step towards beating the game consistently.

One of the points I keep driving home through HANA is that takeout is too high compared to other forms of gambling. I'm not the only one saying this. In 2004 the National HBPA published a report by Will Cummings:
http://www.nationalhbpa.com/resource...ort7-17-04.PDF

The report makes some very valid points. Ironically, while the industry has largely ignored the report, many of the things Cummings predicted have manifested themselves in one form or another.

The NTRA Player's Panel also reached many of the same conclusions that Cummings did. In fact the NTRA Player's Panel came out and said the following about rebates:
In almost every racing jurisdiction takeout is set at the state government level. Rebates are the only mechansism currently in place that effectively reduces takeout. Through HANA I've been advocating lowered takeouts by making rebates available to all.

Did you ever stop to ask yourself why PTC hasn't been able to (so far) land a single TrackNet track signal? It's not for lack of trying on Ian's part. And it's not for lack of willingness to pay the asking price for the signal. TrackNet would like nothing better than for Ian and Premier Turf Club to quietly go away. PTC represents a threat to trackNet's plan to force continued high takeouts upon as many players as possible. Denying track signals to PTC is one way of doing that.

Think I'm making that up?

Anyone remember what TrackNet did towards the end of 2006 and into early 2007? About the same time that the DOJ clamped down on Neteller and PinnacleSports.com was forced to stop accepting action from residents of the United States - TrackNet made it a requirement that rebaters enforce the following on new account sign ups: Bet at least $1 million a year or no rebates! IOW, about the same time thousands of formerly rebated players from Pinnacle were searching for a parimutuel ADW where they could bet horses at reduced vig (such as Elite Turf Club, IRG, RGS, Lien Games, etc.) TrackNet began putting the screws to the player!

Believe me when I tell you this: TrackNet would love nothing better than to force high takeouts upon as many players as possible.

What can you do about it?

Let your wallet do the talking! Sign up for an account at PTC and give THEM your handle instead of giving it to TrackNet.

If TrackNet wins its war of attrition and PTC quietly goes away - it will be a VERY long time before players betting less than $1 million a year will find another ADW offering lowered takeout through rebates.

In my opinion, players everywhere should be lining up to support Ian Myers and Premier Turf Club.

Here's their contact info:

Premier Turf Club
http://www.premierturfclub.com/contactus.jsp

PTC Customer Service Center
601 Northern Pacific Avenue
Fargo, North Dakota 58102
(701) 478-6800



-jp

.

[Jeff P]

One word:

Rebates.

How does this work?

A customer betting through an ADW that pays a 6 pct rebate bets $1000 in handle on a Saturday. Win or lose when he logs into his ADW account on Sunday morning he finds that the ADW has credited his account for $60...

6 pct of his $1000 handle

It's not exactly the same thing as lower takeout. But rebated players love this because to them it represents better pricing.

Real world case studies have shown that the takeout is too high. Sophisticated players are price sensitive. When better pricing is made available they bet more. Far more. When better pricing is restricted they bet less. Far less.

I called out TrackNet because they have fought availability of better pricing tooth and nail. Their current business model is a failure. By forcing takeouts that are too high upon as many players as possible they are driving the business of price sensitive players away... offshore to sports books in Costa Rica... to Bet Fair in the UK who btw has more handle on North American races at certain tracks than the tracks do themselves.

In short: TrackNet's business model prevents handle growth. Not just my opinion - but the opinion of some very intelligent consultants and critical thinkers the industry has hired and paid several hundred thousand dollars to for economic studies and recommendations.

To address your question:

Please explain how Tracknet can set takeouts, from my understanding they have ZERO to do with takeout.

They can't set takeout itself. In most racing jurisdictions in the US that's up to state legislatures.

Here's what TrackNet CAN do:

1. Make their track signals available to any and all ADWs willing to pony up and pay the asking price for the signal. IOW get the product out there instead of restricting access to it.

2. Remove their $1 million rebate floor.

IOW grow handle by making better pricing a reality through rebates.



-jp

.

[happy1]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

To address your question: They can't set takeout itself. In most racing jurisdictions in the US that's up to state legislatures.

.

cool that's how i thought it worked. Tracknet can however make signal fees so unpalatable that it can eliminate REBATES by anyone they choose.

tnx

[lamboguy]

and you can chose not to play the tracks that don't give you a fair rebate. i have and so haven't a few of my friends. i am not saying that you should, if you love new york racing or california raceing or maryland or churhill, by all means play them with a little rebate or no rebate at all. obviously alot of rebate players are staying away no matter how high the pick 6 carryover pools are getting.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Good post Jcapper.

I have been banging around PTC for no other reasons than the Canary aspect of it and that's because I bet with Twinspires I can make withdraws from a local track.No hassle.I am new to the ADW game and Bodog,an offshore in Costa Rica told me it was a 30-40 day business wait between check if I wanted them.No Thanks.

I can tell you now though I'd want a $600.00 return for every $10,000 bet.I would love it even more if for every $150.00 I bet on a Friday night they could send me a 12-pack! via overnight mail when the freaks need refueling and leave my house!!!(I hope other horseplayers have lives)But I understand such player hospitaility is limited.What a shame.Plus I'm joking!!!

$600.00 is a hell of a lot more significant than the 4 tenths of 1% that Twinspires offers,and I have offered that nugget of information to them.

Nobody can argue the rebates,but the peripheral products CAN be argued all day.And I'd rather side with a horseplayers for horseplayers site but the fact is I will have to split my bets to get video and suffer shipping charges and business dates on winnings.That sucks.It's like City Bank for me to drive 8 miles to River Downs,flash my card and get money.Nobody can argue with that.That might be taboo.From the hatred vented on here from anyone non-republican to anyone claiming a winner.If you win,you have to collect.And I'd rather collect when I need to.That is the entire point=when you win=you collect.The sooner the better.Mine is 8 minutes away non rebate,what is yours and what is that worth??!!!!

[gopony]

1) rebates
2) rebates
3) being a twinspire user also. I have noted on a couple of occasions, that I have been locked out of races because their servers are to busy. At least that is the error message I have been given. Today it was the sixth race at Fair Grounds. Started 5 minutes before PT. Never got the bet in.
One it's really frustrating when you spend an hour HC a race and then find you can't bet it.
Two when after the race you find you would have cashed a winning ticket.

Note to Ian, pay your IT crew well. Before you get a lock in with vendors on servers software, look at Open Source software. Maybe it's already to late, but in the future expansion will be cheaper. ( Just my 2 cents from experience in working with database systems).

I just threw that in because I think you are going to need to expand before long. Why?

Poor performance by other ADW's.
PTC interface (bet builder) is cleaner. I actually think someone who bets on races actually was in on the design phase and had a say in the final product.

I've heard that you are working with other vendors of software to incorporate their software with yours. Placing bets through the same software you are using to handicap. Good Idea.

I had heard of PTC, but until 2 months ago I had never seen the interface. Once I saw the interface, I wanted to try it and did. I also received a rebate, which really did start me moving more of my business your way.

Also customer service has been excellent so far at PTC.

Oh, by the way I didn't bet the 7th race at FG. To frustrated, not good to bet when you're mad. Plus I used the time to further study the races at DED and PEN, which are available on PTC. So an extra $2 will go through PTC tonight.

I know big deal, but where it pays off for PTC is when people are asking me about how this horse racing thing works. Now I have no problem telling them to try and get a PTC account.

[Premier Turf Club]

1) rebates
2) rebates
3) being a twinspire user also. I have noted on a couple of occasions, that I have been locked out of races because their servers are to busy. At least that is the error message I have been given. Today it was the sixth race at Fair Grounds. Started 5 minutes before PT. Never got the bet in.
One it's really frustrating when you spend an hour HC a race and then find you can't bet it.
Two when after the race you find you would have cashed a winning ticket.

Note to Ian, pay your IT crew well. Before you get a lock in with vendors on servers software, look at Open Source software. Maybe it's already to late, but in the future expansion will be cheaper. ( Just my 2 cents from experience in working with database systems).

I just threw that in because I think you are going to need to expand before long. Why?

Poor performance by other ADW's.
PTC interface (bet builder) is cleaner. I actually think someone who bets on races actually was in on the design phase and had a say in the final product.

I've heard that you are working with other vendors of software to incorporate their software with yours. Placing bets through the same software you are using to handicap. Good Idea.

I had heard of PTC, but until 2 months ago I had never seen the interface. Once I saw the interface, I wanted to try it and did. I also received a rebate, which really did start me moving more of my business your way.

Also customer service has been excellent so far at PTC.

Oh, by the way I didn't bet the 7th race at FG. To frustrated, not good to bet when you're mad. Plus I used the time to further study the races at DED and PEN, which are available on PTC. So an extra $2 will go through PTC tonight.

I know big deal, but where it pays off for PTC is when people are asking me about how this horse racing thing works. Now I have no problem telling them to try and get a PTC account.

Thank you for the kind words. We treat our tech guys very well because they are so important. The platform uses MYSQL/RedHAT/J2EE for those that care. No .net here. We were concerned about scaleability.

And I hope it looks like it was designed by a horse player because I designed it (and my tech team coded it) and I have been betting horses since 1975. I have to give credit to oiur beta-testers who have given us very good feeback on how to make it better on each release. Of course it helped that the developers I chose have extensive pari-mutuel experience.

Naturally I am biased but I think its the best platform on the market in terms of functionality. I know we need to do more in terms of graphics and such but we put our time and money into building something highly functional and stable first.

[mannyberrios]

Originally Posted by turfnsport

Are you saying getting a free toaster after wagering $20,000 at TW is not a good deal?

Rebates, We dont need no stinkin Rebates.

[rokitman]

Any possibility of an RTN/PTC alliance as there is with some of the data providers?

Cirkle Jerque

[Premier Turf Club]

It is something I have thought about and discussed with some players offline. I have not yet explored the costs associated with that.

The issue has always been is that it would cost you less to obtain video elsewhere than we would have to pay a vendor to provide it. I understand that it is still a hole that we need to look at. More track content would go a long way in allowing us to provide an even broader range of services. We shall see what '09 brings.

[Charlie D]

Ian

On a scale of 1-10 what are the chances of PTC being partners with these tracks in 2009??


NYRA
Philly
Fair Grounds
Calder
Gulfstream

[rokitman]

I was was thinking more in terms of an alliance that you just strike a better deal for your customers by affiliating them to your site. No subsidy by you, at all. They benefit by making your customers theirs, at no marketing cost, and, in return, pass that savings back. I suspect that they might have a problem with their contracts doing that with an ADW though. Was also thinking of what you do with Netcapper and HTR as a possibility. Perhaps it could be an option, instead of an addtion, if the cumulative costs are too high. I.E. If you bet X amount per month, you will be refunded X if you are a customer of the following products and services (choose one):

Or two