Religion II

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Didn't you once tell me that you had fully explored the Eastern religions...and then went back to Christianity? Are these the questions that a person would ask...if he were indeed informed about Buddhism? Or are you testing ME?

"Fully", is a loaded term. Yes, I did tell you I explored Eastern mysticism. I am not testing you, I don't want to unintentionally misrepresent its beliefs, for those who are reading this thread and may not have explored any Eastern mysticism.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes...but the children "trust" their parents only because the parents WIN that trust by being there to take care of the children's needs. What trust would these children have in an "absentee parent"...who only communicates with them through the written word?

That's where you are wrong. God communicates to his children through his Word and through the Holy Spirit who he sends to take up residence in their bodies.

And God "earns" the trust of his child because for their first time in life, God removed his blindness so that he could see who God really is through Jesus Christ and who he himself really is. Once a person sees this, he cannot help but to humble himself before his Creator, Redeemer and Loving Father. Observe what happened to the prophet Isaiah when caught a vision of God:

Isa 6:3-5
3 And one called out to another and said,

"Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,,
The whole earth is full of His glory."

4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. 5 Then I said,

"Woe is me, for I am ruined!,
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;,
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."
NASB

When Isaiah saw God, he realized just how unlike God he was, and he was humbled.

The key to understanding the passage is that one must convert first and [then] become like a child.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

26 He also said, “This is what the kingdom of God is like. A man scatters seed on the ground. 27 Night and day, whether he sleeps or gets up, the seed sprouts and grows, though he does not know how. 28 All by itself the soil produces grain—first the stalk, then the head, then the full kernel in the head. 29 As soon as the grain is ripe, he puts the sickle to it, because the harvest has come.” (Mk 4:26-29) [emphasis added]

Did the person who scattered the seed have the faith of a child?

OF COURSE i WILL GIVE YOU THE INNER INTERPRETATION. Can't help it.

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.""

Matthew 13:24–30:24

24 He put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field; 25but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and then went away. 26So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well.

The sower represents an "educated" child who has learned some wisdom in the quest for spiritual growth, informing him to keep watch. So it's not only the acceptance and trust of a child, but proper understanding of what is good and bad in being a successful "gardener" that eventually must be embraced.

The tempering of the child by the ongoing task on how to grow those beginnings of wisdom into a mature "mighty oak".

Childhood is only the beginning. Learning to separate the wheat fro the chaff internally, in ones own being leads to something else.

"know thyself"

"The unexamined life is not worth living."

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

When the Christian likes a Jesus quote, like the one where Jesus declares that "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one gets to the Father except through me"...then the Christian takes the quote literally, and puffs out his chest while declaring that his is the only "true religion".

But when the same Christian isn't so sure about a Jesus quote, like the one where he says that "we should turn the other cheek when struck"...or that "we should give all our money away and follow him"...then the Christian convinces himself that Jesus was only "kidding"...or that he was referring only to his closest disciples when he said that.

As I said...we see only what we want to see.

I agree there are people who do not understand their religion, but a follower's inability to follow the lifestyle does not invalidate the religion. If a person sees only what he wants to see it is not, by default, the calling card of the religion, but the failure of the person to live the lifestyle.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

I agree there are people who do not understand their religion, but a follower's inability to follow the lifestyle does not invalidate the religion. If a person sees only what he wants to see it is not, by default, the calling card of the religion, but the failure of the person to live the lifestyle.

IMO...there is no "validity" in ANY religion. The "validity" is lost the minute the original doctrines become organized, packaged and sold...for public consumption. Then religion becomes a "business"...and it loses all connection to its founder, and his "authenticity". And this applies to ALL the religions that I have encountered. That's why I endeavor to stay as close as I can to the founders' original teachings...while ignoring the dogma that invariably gets attached to them during the "commercialization" process.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Well how do you become liberated? Don't you need to live by a set of standards?

You have to do more than just live by a set of standards. You have to, through your own efforts, see past the illusionary nature of your own mind...and the world at large.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You have to do more than just live by a set of standards. You have to, through your own efforts, see past the illusionary nature of your own mind...and the world at large.

Good. In general nothing above is in conflict with Christianity. In Christianity you have to reject the "false promises" i.e. the illusions of the world and the nature of your own mind, i.e, pride of life, as well as, living according to a set of standards.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

IMO...there is no "validity" in ANY religion. The "validity" is lost the minute the original doctrines become organized, packaged and sold...for public consumption. Then religion becomes a "business"...and it loses all connection to its founder, and his "authenticity". And this applies to ALL the religions that I have encountered. That's why I endeavor to stay as close as I can to the founders' original teachings...while ignoring the dogma that invariably gets attached to them during the "commercialization" process.

You have espoused this opinion before, however, I am not of the same opinion. It seems your objection is based on the problem of authority. You question where do these "changes" come from. A valid question.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by hcap

OF COURSE i WILL GIVE YOU THE INNER INTERPRETATION. Can't help it.





The sower represents an "educated" child who has learned some wisdom in the quest for spiritual growth, informing him to keep watch. So it's not only the acceptance and trust of a child, but proper understanding of what is good and bad in being a successful "gardener" that eventually must be embraced.

The tempering of the child by the ongoing task on how to grow those beginnings of wisdom into a mature "mighty oak".

Childhood is only the beginning. Learning to separate the wheat fro the chaff internally, in ones own being leads to something else.

"know thyself"

"The unexamined life is not worth living."

hcap:

I have no problem with interpretations that explain inner spirituality. My problem is similar to Dnlgfnk with "esoteric" knowledge is about its source.

BTW if you read the article about fatalism and free will you will see another reason why I reject Calvinism, as it promotes and nurtures paganism's world view of fatalism.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Dnlgfnk is half-right...TALKING and READING about Eastern mysticism has indeed become "trendy", and "chic". Just look how many "Eastern philosophy" books are published and sold each year in this country. But "talking" and 'reading' about a particular philosophy/religion isn't the same as LIVING THE LIFE that this philosophy/religion instructs...just as 'talking' about discipline isn't the same as living the "disciplined life". And...LIVING by the standards set by Eastern mysticism certainly isn't "trendy", or "chic".

All religions should be lived. Not only mystical eastern "trendy" teachings. So what?

And so what that eastern thought has become trendy? People in the west are very tired of the established religious culture. For good reason I might add.

Nor do Eastern concepts become automatically devalued because dnlgfnk does not like "competing myths."

So dnlgfnk is not even half-right.

But it behooves all practitioners of any religion or teaching, fashionable, trendy or not, to dive deep.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

But it behooves all practitioners of any religion or teaching, fashionable, trendy or not, to dive deep.

As long as the name of the lagoon is Allegorical, right?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

hcap:

I have no problem with interpretations that explain inner spirituality. My problem is similar to Dnlgfnk with "esoteric" knowledge is about its source.

An innerr interpretation is common in various religions. I mentioned the Bhagavad Gita using war as an external model for the inner struggle.

The Bhagavad Gita and the battle of everyday life

https://www.ekhartyoga.com/articles/...everyday-life#

The most interesting and often misunderstood aspect of the Bhagavad Gita is that it's entirely representational and highly symbolic. There is no real battlefield or fight to be won; the entire text is a representation of the battle that goes on in our minds and is an invaluable way to understand how we can overcome difficulty, self-doubt, and ultimately how to live a life of truth and purpose.

I also added my own understanding.......

The old testament is also about similar inner battles.
Otherwise god murdering firstborn and newborns makes absolutely no sense.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

The old testament is also about similar inner battles.
Otherwise god murdering firstborn and newborns makes absolutely no sense.

Substitute the word judging for "murdering" by a holy, righteous God, then it makes sense since the entire human race is under indictment and guilty of sin -- original and/or actual.

[hcap]

Kaballah, the ancient Jewish tradition of mystical interpretation of the Bible also touches on this same inner battle. Here is a "midrash" based on that tradition.

Exodus: An Allegorical Portrait of the Human Mind in its Relationship to God

https://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/exodu...ionship-to-god

...It broadens our understanding of Judaism by linking it with the mystical quest at the heart of all the worlds’ great religious traditions, both Eastern and Western. It simultaneously deepens our relationship to Judaism by making Exodus personally relevant.

....Exodus is far more than just a simple story about winning freedom. It is an allegorical portrait of the human mind. Its two central characters—Pharaoh and Moses—are not just historical figures, not just characters in a biblical drama. They are archetypes that portray opposing aspects of the human mind in its relationship to Spirit.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Kaballah, the ancient Jewish tradition of mystical interpretation of the Bible also touches on this same inner battle. Here is a "midrash" based on that tradition.

Exodus: An Allegorical Portrait of the Human Mind in its Relationship to God

https://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/exodu...ionship-to-god

...It broadens our understanding of Judaism by linking it with the mystical quest at the heart of all the worlds’ great religious traditions, both Eastern and Western. It simultaneously deepens our relationship to Judaism by making Exodus personally relevant.

....Exodus is far more than just a simple story about winning freedom. It is an allegorical portrait of the human mind. Its two central characters—Pharaoh and Moses—are not just historical figures, not just characters in a biblical drama. They are archetypes that portray opposing aspects of the human mind in its relationship to Spirit.

(emphases mine)

All your religions are man-centered, which is why you prefer them to over God.
Conversely, the bible is Christ-centered.

And it appears you're into certain types of religions for religions' sake!? You have a "relationship" with a religion because it's a means to the end, which is also religion? How 'bout a relationship with the Creator and Redeemer of mankind? A relationship with a real person instead of an abstract, amoral, impersonal entity of an unknown source?