Are there any car dealers out there?

[davew]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

The mechanic who changed the oil used an STP oil filter. I talked to him about the problem I am having, and he swears that he has never encountered this before.

He advised me to take the car away from the dealer and let him “play with it”, but I am in no mood to “play” right now.

but you are willing to accept the diagnosis of the used car Mazda dealer? if your doctor told you your liver was shot but you could survive if you get a transplant, would you get a second opinion?

[green80]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

The car is covered by the manufacturer’s warranty until the end of this year

If the problem was caused by the failure of an oil filter that was not provided by the manufacturer they would have no obligation to repair the car under warranty, the maker and/or seller of the oil filter would be responsible. That is is why it is important to first get a statement from the dealer that says the issue is due to a defective oil filter. Also, have the dealer take pictures of these "fragments" in the engine or allow you to do so. The more evidence you can get from the dealer the better your case will be if it need to go that far.

[Inner Dirt]

Originally Posted by green80

If the problem was caused by the failure of an oil filter that was not provided by the manufacturer they would have no obligation to repair the car under warranty, the maker and/or seller of the oil filter would be responsible. That is is why it is important to first get a statement from the dealer that says the issue is due to a defective oil filter.

The chances of an oil filter sending it's own metal into the engine are nil.

[green80]

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt

The chances of an oil filter sending it's own metal into the engine are nil.

It is possible that the cellulose material inside the oil filter can break apart and enter the engine. Not saying that is what happened but from his post it sounds like that is what the dealer is telling him. I will admit that is is rare but not impossible.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by davew

but you are willing to accept the diagnosis of the used car Mazda dealer? if your doctor told you your liver was shot but you could survive if you get a transplant, would you get a second opinion?

Maybe I should have been a little more precise in my original post. This is no ordinary "used car Mazda dealer". This is a major automotive group which operates 74 franchises in seven USA states. They have been selling new and used cars since 1931, and they sell 35 different brands of cars...from Chevrolets to Rolls Royces.

[Light]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Back to the dealer we go, only to be told that we have three possible scenarios facing us:

1. Pay $2,200 so the top cover can be taken off the engine to see if the fragments have stayed at the very top so they could be easily cleaned up and the problem fixed. But if not, then...

2. Pay an additional $4,000 to replace the cylinder hoping that this would fix the problem. But if not, then...

3. We would have to pay an additional $9,000 to replace the entire engine.

I've been a mechanic with my own business for 45 years. I can tell you that whatever the source for the debris in the engine is, the first 2 options you listed from the dealer would be absolutely foolish.

The top half of the engine (cylinder head) receives oil from the oil pump last because it is farthest away from the oil pump which is in the oil pan at the very bottom of the engine. So if debris entered the engine and is distributed by the oil pump, there would be more debris in the lower half of the engine than the upper half (cylinder head). Cleaning or replacing the cylinder head would do nothing for the debris in the lower half of the engine and the new cylinder head would immediately get recontaminated again once the engine is restarted from the contaminated lower half. The engine would be prone to damage requiring the 3rd option the dealer mentioned. In other words the first 2 options are a complete waste of money.

Also there is no such thing as an oil filter decomposing its metallic insides and contaminating an engine with metal fragments. There is however many an oil filter that comes loose and leak oil because of improper tightening after an oil change. That would cause oil starvation inside the engine and cause metallic friction surfaces to distribute minute metallic fragments throughout the engine. But again the lower half of the engine would be more at risk than the upper. And the lower half is much more expensive than the upper half.

My guess is that this may be a factory defect that the dealer is covering up for with these strange explanations. I would ask to see this oil filter that "disintegrated". If they say they threw it away I would become very suspicious. By law you have the right to ask for the parts back that they replaced. And by law they have to give it back to you unless you waved that right in the work order you signed. (This is Ca law).

If they do give the old oil filter back to you then you can have it evaluated by a professional to see if this impossibility exist. This way you'll have evidence if they are are telling the truth.

If you really want them to sweat, have them put in writing what they are telling you. That the oil filter threw metallic pieces of itself into the engine. I doubt they will because it doesn't exist and you would have more than ample evidence of a lie should you take legal action.

There was a famous case a lot of us mechanics know about where the husband told his car clueless wife to take the car in for an oil change. The mechanic told her she needed "muffler bearings" and it would be $600 and she was in great danger if she didn't do it. She authorized the work based on that. But there is no such thing as "muffler bearings" . But the idiot mechanic wrote it down on the work order.

That evening the husband asks the wife "did you take the car in"? She says yes and it was a good thing as my muffler bearings were about to fail. The husband was a mechanic and knew she was taken but asked to see the work order and it was on there. So next day he goes into the shop and shows them the work order and says "now we both know there are no muffler bearings.

So either you pay me $$$$$$ or I am going to those who license you,and you're going to get a hefty fine and I'm going to sue you for the max and fraud because I have the evidence in writing". Of course they paid him. But if he didn't have it in writing, he had nothing.

[Inner Dirt]

Originally Posted by green80

It is possible that the cellulose material inside the oil filter can break apart and enter the engine. Not saying that is what happened but from his post it sounds like that is what the dealer is telling him. I will admit that is is rare but not impossible.

The only danger that would pose is plugging up the siphon of the oil pump if it is like the style I am used to as I haven't had an engine made after 1994 apart. There would be no way for it to enter the combustion chambers.

Even if it could it would get incinerated. If I was the owner of that car I would find someone with mechanical knowledge and a backbone and go down and talk to the service manager and work my way up till I got a resolution.

[OntheRail]

If any sizable piece of metal made it thru the pickup screen... the oil pump would be the first thing it hit.. so how is the oil pressure. Also if it some how did and jammed pump momentarily it would most likely cause the valve timing to jump... still unlikely but hey one in a millions happen every day.. That being said I still highly doubt the oil filter imploded. I did hear of a guy that did not pull a plastic film off his filter and just screwed it on... that block oil flow and starved the crank bearing causing some damage.

Get the deals angle in writing... get filter back. And go see last guy to do oil change. He will be motivated to make it right... and just because this dealer is huge doesn't mean some crooked shit in the service shop is not happening. As the service shop is its own separate business from the sales department.

I know vehicle issue suck... just found one of the wires going to my coil primary was broken inside the insulation and was cause intermittent lose of spark on primary. I heard from the experts it was a fuel issue you need a new fuel pump. No I could smell raw fuel from lack of fire. A bit of poking around and a test lead revealed to real cause. Fix it with a free plug from the salvage yard.. cause the parts store wanted $58 for it and had to order it in.

Anyway wish you the best outcome in this.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Light

I've been a mechanic with my own business for 45 years. I can tell you that whatever the source for the debris in the engine is, the first 2 options you listed from the dealer would be absolutely foolish.

The top half of the engine (cylinder head) receives oil from the oil pump last because it is farthest away from the oil pump which is in the oil pan at the very bottom of the engine. So if debris entered the engine and is distributed by the oil pump, there would be more debris in the lower half of the engine than the upper half (cylinder head). Cleaning or replacing the cylinder head would do nothing for the debris in the lower half of the engine and the new cylinder head would immediately get recontaminated again once the engine is restarted from the contaminated lower half. The engine would be prone to damage requiring the 3rd option the dealer mentioned. In other words the first 2 options are a complete waste of money.

Also there is no such thing as an oil filter decomposing its metallic insides and contaminating an engine with metal fragments. There is however many an oil filter that comes loose and leak oil because of improper tightening after an oil change. That would cause oil starvation inside the engine and cause metallic friction surfaces to distribute minute metallic fragments throughout the engine. But again the lower half of the engine would be more at risk than the upper. And the lower half is much more expensive than the upper half.

My guess is that this may be a factory defect that the dealer is covering up for with these strange explanations. I would ask to see this oil filter that "disintegrated". If they say they threw it away I would become very suspicious. By law you have the right to ask for the parts back that they replaced. And by law they have to give it back to you unless you waved that right in the work order you signed. (This is Ca law).

If they do give the old oil filter back to you then you can have it evaluated by a professional to see if this impossibility exist. This way you'll have evidence if they are are telling the truth.

If you really want them to sweat, have them put in writing what they are telling you. That the oil filter threw metallic pieces of itself into the engine. I doubt they will because it doesn't exist and you would have more than ample evidence of a lie should you take legal action.

There was a famous case a lot of us mechanics know about where the husband told his car clueless wife to take the car in for an oil change. The mechanic told her she needed "muffler bearings" and it would be $600 and she was in great danger if she didn't do it. She authorized the work based on that. But there is no such thing as "muffler bearings" . But the idiot mechanic wrote it down on the work order.

That evening the husband asks the wife "did you take the car in"? She says yes and it was a good thing as my muffler bearings were about to fail. The husband was a mechanic and knew she was taken but asked to see the work order and it was on there. So next day he goes into the shop and shows them the work order and says "now we both know there are no muffler bearings.

So either you pay me $$$$$$ or I am going to those who license you,and you're going to get a hefty fine and I'm going to sue you for the max and fraud because I have the evidence in writing". Of course they paid him. But if he didn't have it in writing, he had nothing.

Thank you for taking the time to tell me all this...it has given me much to think about. I much appreciate the advice...and I will make good use of it. This is exactly the sort of advice that I was hoping for when I decided to start this thread. Thanks again.

[thaskalos]

And I would also like to thank all the rest of you who bothered to give me your valuable advice. I am indebted to all of you...and your kindness has reminded me of the main reason that I have been hanging around this place for the last 20 years. We may argue a lot here about many different things...but we also help each other whenever the need arises. Thanks again to one and all.

[Inner Dirt]

Originally Posted by OntheRail

I know vehicle issue suck... just found one of the wires going to my coil primary was broken inside the insulation and was cause intermittent lose of spark on primary. I heard from the experts it was a fuel issue you need a new fuel pump. No I could smell raw fuel from lack of fire. A bit of poking around and a test lead revealed to real cause. Fix it with a free plug from the salvage yard.. cause the parts store wanted $58 for it and had to order it in.

Anyway wish you the best outcome in this.

I call those tail chasing jobs, it could be a 10 minute fix or two days. I had one recently. Left rear turn signal, brake and back up light were out. Broken wires in a split casing that was on top of a frame rail. Weird as they were almost cut clean through, 5 wires out of 10 with the plastic protective casing broken off. What I thought was odd is there wasn't any clean spots that looked like something hit it. I just started cutting the wire bundles and pulling them down. I live in the woods and drive through gravel dirt and mud very often. I ate a lifetime supply of dirt and it took 5 hours. That is one of those jobs where the only advantage a shop would have is a lift.

[JustRalph]

YouTube (Short URL)

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by Light

I've been a mechanic with my own business for 45 years. I can tell you that whatever the source for the debris in the engine is, the first 2 options you listed from the dealer would be absolutely foolish.

The top half of the engine (cylinder head) receives oil from the oil pump last because it is farthest away from the oil pump which is in the oil pan at the very bottom of the engine. So if debris entered the engine and is distributed by the oil pump, there would be more debris in the lower half of the engine than the upper half (cylinder head). Cleaning or replacing the cylinder head would do nothing for the debris in the lower half of the engine and the new cylinder head would immediately get recontaminated again once the engine is restarted from the contaminated lower half. The engine would be prone to damage requiring the 3rd option the dealer mentioned. In other words the first 2 options are a complete waste of money.

Also there is no such thing as an oil filter decomposing its metallic insides and contaminating an engine with metal fragments. There is however many an oil filter that comes loose and leak oil because of improper tightening after an oil change. That would cause oil starvation inside the engine and cause metallic friction surfaces to distribute minute metallic fragments throughout the engine. But again the lower half of the engine would be more at risk than the upper. And the lower half is much more expensive than the upper half.

My guess is that this may be a factory defect that the dealer is covering up for with these strange explanations. I would ask to see this oil filter that "disintegrated". If they say they threw it away I would become very suspicious. By law you have the right to ask for the parts back that they replaced. And by law they have to give it back to you unless you waved that right in the work order you signed. (This is Ca law).

If they do give the old oil filter back to you then you can have it evaluated by a professional to see if this impossibility exist. This way you'll have evidence if they are are telling the truth.

If you really want them to sweat, have them put in writing what they are telling you. That the oil filter threw metallic pieces of itself into the engine. I doubt they will because it doesn't exist and you would have more than ample evidence of a lie should you take legal action.

There was a famous case a lot of us mechanics know about where the husband told his car clueless wife to take the car in for an oil change. The mechanic told her she needed "muffler bearings" and it would be $600 and she was in great danger if she didn't do it. She authorized the work based on that. But there is no such thing as "muffler bearings" . But the idiot mechanic wrote it down on the work order.

That evening the husband asks the wife "did you take the car in"? She says yes and it was a good thing as my muffler bearings were about to fail. The husband was a mechanic and knew she was taken but asked to see the work order and it was on there. So next day he goes into the shop and shows them the work order and says "now we both know there are no muffler bearings.

So either you pay me $$$$$$ or I am going to those who license you,and you're going to get a hefty fine and I'm going to sue you for the max and fraud because I have the evidence in writing". Of course they paid him. But if he didn't have it in writing, he had nothing.

first of all, you are 100% correct.

it the engine is no good, and i highly doubt that, you can buy one out of the junkyard or a rebuilt one from anywhere between $600- $1500, and i am using high numbers. the dealer or whoever would replace your engine is going to do the exact same thing. Mazda engines don't go bad! you can find a mechanic that will put it in for you for anywhere between $1000 and $1500. then you go sue both the warranty company and the dealer and you will win treble damages for getting jerked around by them. you might ultimately get them for more than the car cost you. This nonsense with a bad oil change or subpar filter is garbage.

[Inner Dirt]

I did quite a bit of Googling and it seems that year and model don't have any common problems with the engine, it appears your son just drew the short straw. It seems it is a given they usually make it to 200,000 miles.