RIP to Mongolian Groom and CA Racing

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Some see horses as commodities...and some don't. And now, these two viewpoints have squared off against each other on the field of battle. And, as with all battles...the "strongest" side will emerge victorious.

I agree with you.

At it's heart, Horse Racing involves racing horses for money.

Most horse deaths don't come from evil trainers, or bad surfaces, or drugs. They come from racing horses.

And I am aware/fine with that.


If social norms continue to evolve in the current direction, we'll eventually see Horse Racing become even more of a niche sport for a small group of wealthy owners to hold private events.

In the meantime we have to do our best to keep pace with evolving social-norms.
Kill pens should be eradicated. There should be farm space for retired horses to roam for as long as they can do so comfortably. We have to come up with solutions for when a horse has underlying issues, but whose highest-and-best financial use is as a prize runner. We're going to have to then consider contraction of the claiming game (held only for slow horses, not horses who would be fast if not for an underlying condition).
We also need to do much better with propaganda. We have to sell our good points and diminish our bad points to the public with the best that marketing and psychology has to offer.

These are all things that go beyond my competence, and that I don't know the answers to.

This year's Breeders' Cup was exceptional. We did a tremendous job with the horses and surface. There was one unethical thing that I noticed, and that was the delay in euthanizing Mongolian Groom. Other than that, we treated the horses like prized racehorses, we scratched several horses with questionable soundness (even in a case like Thais, where a top trainer was upset), and we went to the extreme with maintaining a safe surface.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

I agree with you.

At it's heart, Horse Racing involves racing horses for money.

Most horse deaths don't come from evil trainers, or bad surfaces, or drugs. They come from racing horses.

And I am aware/fine with that.


If social norms continue to evolve in the current direction, we'll eventually see Horse Racing become even more of a niche sport for a small group of wealthy owners to hold private events.

In the meantime we have to do our best to keep pace with evolving social-norms.
Kill pens should be eradicated. There should be farm space for retired horses to roam for as long as they can do so comfortably. We have to come up with solutions for when a horse has underlying issues, but whose highest-and-best financial use is as a prize runner. We're going to have to then consider contraction of the claiming game (held only for slow horses, not horses who would be fast if not for an underlying condition).
We also need to do much better with propaganda. We have to sell our good points and diminish our bad points to the public with the best that marketing and psychology has to offer.

These are all things that go beyond my competence, and that I don't know the answers to.

This year's Breeders' Cup was exceptional. We did a tremendous job with the horses and surface. There was one unethical thing that I noticed, and that was the delay in euthanizing Mongolian Groom. Other than that, we treated the horses like prized racehorses, we scratched several horses with questionable soundness (even in a case like Thais, where a top trainer was upset), and we went to the extreme with maintaining a safe surface.

This matter isn't as decided as you make it out to be. There have been studies which prove that most of these deaths occur due to pre-existing ailments...and that complicates things greatly.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Is there a sport that has controlled drugs? Everybody tests yet there are still drugs being used.

Nobody controls drugs anywhere - on the track, on the streets, anywhere.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by bob60566

Andy Do the other gambling options have uncontrolled drug abuse.?

I wouldn't call it 'uncontrolled' but some of the slots players do seem highly medicated...

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by bob60566

I think this study shows,
If you need bute to race or train, you shouldn’t race or train at all


https://www.drf.com/news/study-shows...ty-horses-bute

Bute is no longer allowed on raceday so it’s a day late and a dollar short.

It also states Lasix doesn’t cause breakdowns either.

[AltonKelsey]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

This matter isn't as decided as you make it out to be. There have been studies which prove that most of these deaths occur due to pre-existing ailments...and that complicates things greatly.

I suspect if all pre existing 'ailments' were prohibited from racing , we'd have no racing as we know it.


Clearly , these horses racing with issues must be winning or earning purse money , or they would never run at all. Why would they?


Just saw a race at DEL MAR



Horse clearly has issues, claimed for 20k, dropped for the WIN next start to 10k, then in today off that win for 8k.


Broke down at the 1/4 pole while contending. Edited from the replay, which seems to be a thing.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

I suspect if all pre existing 'ailments' were prohibited from racing , we'd have no racing as we know it.

If the only way the sport can survive is by sending horses to the starting gate before their ailments are allowed to heal properly...then the sport deserves to be killed off, IMO.

[bob60566]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

If the only way the sport can survive is by sending horses to the starting gate before their ailments are allowed to heal properly...then the sport deserves to be killed off, IMO.

And that is the rest of the story

[NY BRED]

I'm attempting to get to the heart of this crisis, having computer issues right now, so here are my questions:

Are yearly statistics available for thoroughbred injuries or deaths at each of the
tracks, including quarter horses fatalities, and thoroughbred injuries racing at the quarter horse tracks and all other tracks in California?

In turn, there should be information available for the number of injuries and deaths of horses prior and after replacement of the dirt surfaces at Santa Anita and the balance of thoroughbred tracks in California.

I would presume there have been studies on approved medications for the past
ten years which also should be reviewed at each of these tracks.

Given the recent fatality at the Breeders Cup after approximately 20 races
and the fact a European champion died this past Saturday, it appears illegal
drugs are not the issue.

Two additional thoughts:

How many breakdowns have occurred when tbreds have breezed during the past 5 years at SA?

Secondly; Perhaps shift dirt racing to Delmar and run only teurf races at Santa Anita.

That recommendation might clear the air on the future of Santa Anita..

[FenceBored]

Originally Posted by NY BRED

Are yearly statistics available for thoroughbred injuries or deaths at each of the
tracks, including quarter horses fatalities, and thoroughbred injuries racing at the quarter horse tracks and all other tracks in California?

In turn, there should be information available for the number of injuries and deaths of horses prior and after replacement of the dirt surfaces at Santa Anita and the balance of thoroughbred tracks in California.

The CHRB Annual Reports have the fatality numbers (racing, training, other) going back into the mid 90s.


http://chrb.ca.gov/annual_reports.asp


They're by reporting year, which has changed a couple of times over the years.

Two additional thoughts:

How many breakdowns have occurred when tbreds have breezed during the past 5 years at SA?

The number of fatalities on Santa Anita's dirt while training from July 1,2013 - June 30, 2018 (the last 5 years reported) is 117 (20+21+31+28+17). That would include both horses who sustained injuries during a timed work and not during timed works.

Secondly; Perhaps shift dirt racing to Delmar and run only teurf races at Santa Anita.

That recommendation might clear the air on the future of Santa Anita..

From the reinstallation of dirt at Santa Anita's dirt through the end of calendar year 2018 (according to the Jockey Club's EID figures) the dirt track has been safer for racing than the turf courses.

[ClockersCorner]

How many breakdowns today at Del Mar?

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by ClockersCorner

How many breakdowns today at Del Mar?

3 on two surfaces.

But the issue is Santa Anita...nothing to see here.

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

Most horse deaths don't come from evil trainers, or bad surfaces, or drugs. They come from racing horses.

And I am aware/fine with that.

Well, I'm NOT fine with that.

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

If social norms continue to evolve in the current direction, we'll eventually see Horse Racing become even more of a niche sport for a small group of wealthy owners to hold private events.

And please, don't cast this off as "social norms".

I know many people who have been part of racing for 20+ years, and they are not leaving the sport because of social norms.

I truly hope I never get to the point where living, breathing, sentient beings with emotional and psychological lives become *commodities* to me i.e. widgets.

Thankfully, I don't believe most players think that way. Nor most trainers, nor most backside workers, etc.

If the majority of player do feel that way, then good riddance to the sport AFAIC.

The truth is, there's enough research out there to make improvements, and while zero deaths are unattainable for any athlete, we have a duty to make things better and it's totally *do-able*, too.

IF anyone hasn't read enough "cringe-worthy" stories about stuff that happens, and shouldn't happen, and wouldn't happen w/out serious punishments, if we had a racing commissioner + a unified centralized body to regulate this smorgasbord, then step aside so change can happen for those of us who want more integrity in the sport.

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

This year's Breeders' Cup was exceptional. We did a tremendous job with the horses and surface.

Agree, and what is the reason why all racing cannot be conducted in this way?

Every time a horse goes down, the chances of a human being becoming paralyzed for life is there, too.

[JustRalph]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

If the only way the sport can survive is by sending horses to the starting gate before their ailments are allowed to heal properly...then the sport deserves to be killed off, IMO.

Amen!