Is it Possible?

[46zilzal]

To get ahead you have to be aggressive almost to the point of being obnoxious because the job market is a fixed game with insiders getting a jump on the crowd.

YOU have to have unique marketable skills presented in a package that opens eyes at the other end garnished with loads of enthusiasm........

It is ashamed the way one has to hide education as it is somehow a detriment in the job market nowadays.

[gl45]

Way to go Pell Mell.
pk choosed to post his BS on this site, and yet he subscribe to a handicapping software on a different site.
pk should go and cry on that site.
Why did he choosed this site? He knew that on this site he would get more attention.
Grow up pk.

[jonnielu]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

This thread just gets curiouser and curiouser.

It began with Patrick asking if winning on a professional level was possible, although I think he was really looking for justification for doing what he had already decided to do.

Now we have progressed to where there are two sides to the answer: the pragmatic side (whose position is that it is difficult under the best of circumstances) and the dreamer side (whose position is that you've got to go for the dream).

This is turning into something larger that it began.

How about a new thread with a poll? We could even take bets and Patrick gets the 18% takeout.

It's interesting that you come around to this today Dave. I was just wondering to myself this afternoon if this situation had the right ingredients to cook up into a gala extraveganza spectacle, the like of which has never been seen in all of horse racing history.

Were you thinking something like this too?

jdl

[ernie simons]

Originally Posted by Bettowin

It's hard enough to make a simple profit using money one can afford to lose not to mention enough of a profit to use to live AND grow a bankroll. Very slim chance of making that work.

Better off getting a online stock account and start daytrading. The takeout is less and IMO you would have a much better chance of making money or have a longer time before going broke.

Actually, I decided to take a shot at day trading myself.
When I went thru the sign up process with an online service....they wanted my financial portfolio...Banking references, etc.
And they were pushing penny stocks.
I dont see Patrick passing those sign up requirements.

[Dave Schwartz]

It's interesting that you come around to this today Dave. I was just wondering to myself this afternoon if this situation had the right ingredients to cook up into a gala extraveganza spectacle, the like of which has never been seen in all of horse racing history.

Were you thinking something like this too?

Johnnie,

No, not really.

The poll would be interesting but I was joking about the rest of it.


Dave

[WinterTriangle]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

the pragmatic side <snip> and the dreamer side

Dave, must we see them as being mutually exclusive?

Plenty of pragmatists walking around with no vision, and no dream. Conversely, plenty of dreamers who never set 2 feet on terra firma.

IMHO, you gotta develop both. Right/Left side of brain---why not use it all?
I've been duly inspired by the great poets, playwrights, and mystics, as well as the great entreprenuers, scientists, and inventors. Try to take something from all.


All I know about PT is what he tells us. Can anyone truly reach down into his core and predict or even judge "what he is capable of"? There is a lot more to people than their past, and even their present. And certainly, a lot more than their "stories".

[Dave Schwartz]

Agreed, they should not be mutually exclusive.

In fact, to accomplish anything worthwhile you need both; the dreamer-side provides the impetus to move forward while the pragmatic side keeps you alive and in business.

Personally, I am more of a dreamer than a pragmatist. My wife and I buy lottery tickets. One for each draw, and we buy them about 20 draws in advance. Hey, if God wants to change my life all at once, I want to make sure I have given Him every opportunity. Of course, with His help I really should only need just the one ticket.

We live in Nevada. So, when we buy lottery tickets, it means a trip to the California border - about 60 miles round trip - and usually includes lunch. It is an outing for us. Occasionally, we have had these conversations about how we are going to spend the money. You know - which of our friends deserve houses, how much goes to the ministries we support, etc.

That's dreaming.

The pragmatic side kicks in by the time we get home. We don't stop on the way home to pick out new big screen TVs or new cars because we recognize that the likelihood of hitting the big payoff is, well... unlikely to say the least.

That is being pragmatic.

While I am all for dreaming, without adding the pragmatic component you have a bad outcome awaiting you.

IMHO, the "dream-with-reckless-abandon" crowd will not achieve anything long term. It is a something-for-nothing expectation.

Now, Patrick has never said that he isn't willing to work for it, and I respect him for that. But the bottom line is that he has not yet accomplished what needs to be accomplished before diving into living the life. It is kind of like saying, "I want to be on the PGA tour and I am willing to work for 10 years or more to get there," then on day three announcing that I am just going to give it a try and see what happens. I emphasize DAY THREE. Not year 3.

That is impractical dreaming.


Dave

[thaskalos]

Most of the topics that we discuss here are trivial...but occasionally, a serious topic comes along, and it demands serious attention.

I don't buy the argument that a man who is broke has nothing else to lose...as long as you still have your self respect, being "broke" can be only a temporary financial situation.

But unless we come to our senses, and start taking "concrete" steps to improve our condition - then we run the risk of losing that self respect...and then...being broke becomes more than a temporary financial situation.

It also becomes a permanent state of mind. And then...all is lost!

A man with no real job, no place to stay, very little money, and health issues which require surgery, has more pressing things to worry about than betting on horses.

Notice that he chose to name this thread: "Is it Possible?".

If he was THAT confident of his chances in this new endeavor, wouldn't he have chosen a different title?

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Most of the topics that we discuss here are trivial...but occasionally, a serious topic comes along, and it demands serious attention.

I don't buy the argument that a man who is broke has nothing else to lose...as long as you still have your self respect, being "broke" can be only a temporary financial situation.

But unless we come to our senses, and start taking "concrete" steps to improve our condition - then we run the risk of losing that self respect...and then...being broke becomes more than a temporary financial situation.

It also becomes a permanent state of mind. And then...all is lost!

A man with no real job, no place to stay, very little money, and health issues which require surgery, has more pressing things to worry about than betting on horses.

Notice that he chose to name this thread: "Is it Possible?".

If he was THAT confident of his chances in this new endeavor, wouldn't he have chosen a different title?

You better stop making sense. At least in this thread.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698

You better stop making sense. At least in this thread.

I learned the hard way...

[WinterTriangle]

Dave, really enjoyed going on that lottery ticket buying trip with you.

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

IMHO, the "dream-with-reckless-abandon" crowd will not achieve anything long term. It is a something-for-nothing expectation.

100% agree.

I see a lot of this in the upcoming generation, although I have an article that I saved from Esquire back when Ben Stein was young and writing there, that said the same thing about the generation that is now older. (I saved it as it was actually about a play about lenny bruce) Basically, he was saying that every young person he ran into in LA had an expectation that they'd have a Porsche, a servant, and a fabulous home on the ocean, but had *zero* plan for attaining it.

Henri Poincaré discusses how his best ideas about the hard stuff ( applied mathematics, physics and celestial mechanics) came to him during moments of walking or dreaming, but of course, he had already *set the stage* in his brain, and done the work, that made it possible for it to come together this way.


But I don't *know* PT....I only know what he tells us. There are homeless people who become quite celebrated and wealthy. I do not know what their "preparation" was, and I don't know the preparedness of PT. None that I could state as something I know. I see his circumstance. I am not one who insists that falling into a hole in mid life is a sure recipe for disaster. I would be hesitant to make predictions about anybody's life, based on so little information and insight.

The important thing that I got out of PT's story is that he says he wants to learn. To me, this is a very positive sign. Learning involves effort.

The poem was for inspiration, not advice. I think Cardus and a few others got that.

[miesque]

Originally Posted by castaway01

The most frustrating thing about this thread is that every time there is good advice and logic presented (and there was a lot of that, don't get me wrong), someone comes back with the idea that those who are telling Patrick not to immediately attempt to be a professional horseplayer are "crushing his dreams." This situation is NOT the same as, for example, telling someone not to go to school to become a doctor because it takes too long, or not to try to accomplish any other goal THAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OF with hard work. Anyone who equates this situation to "crushing someone's dreams" is, at best, ignoring reality and, at worst, you're the "friend" pouring a shot of whiskey for the recovering alcoholic.

Sorry if that's melodramatic, but it's certainly no more out of place than that poem.

I absolutely agree with these sentiments. This thread somewhat reminds me of kids who head to college and want to make a lot of money but follow the "easy" road by taking the advice of those who say "don't worry about what classes you take or what you major in, its all about the experience." Four years later after achieving a Bachelors in Basket Weaving they are unemployed with massive student loans and wonder why they don't have a slick fast track type corporate or Wall Street job.

To be brutally honest and realistic, dreams by themselves are pretty much useless, they don't pay the rent, buy food, clothing, etc... From my perspective there is nothing wrong with shooting down someone's dream by pointing out the obvious fallacies when that dream becomes their plan because believe it or not Life is far more creul than even I can be. Being successful in the grand game of Life (and it in many way it is a big game, albeit one with very serious consequences) is not rocket science and boils down to:

(1) figuring out exactly what you want,
(2) whether what you want is reasonable and achievable based on the constraints you are subject to,
(3) constructing a plan of exactly how to get it,
(4) realistically calculating how much personal sacrifice (time, money, effort) will be expended in its pursuit and then
(5) properly executing that plan and making whatever adjustments are necesary along the way to ensure success.

From my perspective, if you disregard/skip one or more of the above steps, failure is an exponentially more likely outcome, it is just that simple. At the bare minimum Patrick has obviously failed step 2 (not to mention 3, 4 and even 1 are lacking). Dreams can help shape what you want and provide significant motivation and help fuel ambitition (greed also works, in fact I could argue it works much better ). However, dreams can also be a noose by which you can hang yourself if you fail to keep them in the proper perspective.

[cj]

Patrick at one time inquired about buying my figures. He didn't and that is fine by me. I don't want anyone thinking I'm holding a grudge or anything like that. I'm not. I genuinely like the guy and wish him well.

That said, if he asked now, there is no way I would even consider selling them to him. He needs help. That is very clear. In my opinion, anyone encouraging him to pursue the things he says he is targeting is only delaying his inevitable demise. Get healthy, get a real job, get a separate bankroll, and then it would still be a very tough dream to achieve. At this point in time it is ridiculous.

[markgoldie]

Originally Posted by miesque

I absolutely agree with these sentiments. This thread somewhat reminds me of kids who head to college and want to make a lot of money but follow the "easy" road by taking the advice of those who say "don't worry about what classes you take or what you major in, its all about the experience." Four years later after achieving a Bachelors in Basket Weaving they are unemployed with massive student loans and wonder why they don't have a slick fast track type corporate or Wall Street job.

To be brutally honest and realistic, dreams by themselves are pretty much useless, they don't pay the rent, buy food, clothing, etc... From my perspective there is nothing wrong with shooting down someone's dream by pointing out the obvious fallacies when that dream becomes their plan because believe it or not Life is far more creul than even I can be. Being successful in the grand game of Life (and it in many way it is a big game, albeit one with very serious consequences) is not rocket science and boils down to:

(1) figuring out exactly what you want,
(2) whether what you want is reasonable and achievable based on the constraints you are subject to,
(3) constructing a plan of exactly how to get it,
(4) realistically calculating how much personal sacrifice (time, money, effort) will be expended in its pursuit and then
(5) properly executing that plan and making whatever adjustments are necesary along the way to ensure success.

From my perspective, if you disregard/skip one or more of the above steps, failure is an exponentially more likely outcome, it is just that simple. At the bare minimum Patrick has obviously failed step 2 (not to mention 3, 4 and even 1 are lacking). Dreams can help shape what you want and provide significant motivation and help fuel ambitition (greed also works, in fact I could argue it works much better ). However, dreams can also be a noose by which you can hang yourself if you fail to keep them in the proper perspective.

Nice post.

There is a mythology about "realizing your dream" or "dreams really do come true" that has been traditionally perpetuated by storytellers in fairy tales. It has been widely picked up in American cinema because the vast majority of the audiences are juvenile. The universal theme in such stories and movies is that magic happens to those who believe it will. That if you dream something good will happen, it infallibly will; and the most miserable people on the face of the earth do not live in Darfur, but are older people living with regrets that they didn't follow their dream when they were younger. (By the way, this concept should not be confused with the "American Dream," which initially meant only that you could live under a governmental system that allowed the accumulation of personal wealth by those not born to aristocracy).

This notion is also perpetuated by the 1 in 20,000 movie actors or musicians who strike it rich. They invariably stand at the awards' podium, tears in their eyes, and emotionally and passionately implore those other young people out there to "never give up on your dreams!" Well, we're horseplayers and so we know a bit about odds.

And so, your advice to Patrick is right on. And Patrick can take it from me- being a pro is not only not easy, it's very often no fun. Although I have no other income and do this every day of the week, I couldn't imagine being a hand-to-mouth pro without a huge built-up reserve to fall back on. Why? Because the emotional swings would just be unbearable when the losing streak inevitably hits. They are now, even when living expenses are not a consideration.

In short, the emotional investment is enormous. And the reason for that is that you actually need emotional investment to be good. In other words, you don't learn from your losses unless they hurt. And even something like calm self-control is only really learned by suffering the pain of having lost control in the past. The result is that whatever your bank account reads, you live in psychic pain a good deal of the time.

And so, being pro is far, far from scooping easy money- that is, if you are independent. I suppose being a partner in a whale group might be a bit easier.

[pktruckdriver]

Great Stuff

Great Advice

I think that this is gone beyond me and hit home to many of you personally and I am your person to explain your experiences with trying this.

Now this is kinda what I wanted to hear, the cold hard fact that this is not any easy thing to do and very very few succeed at it , and some dead broke and homeless guy most definetly can not do it, well why, becuase you couldn't?

Yes a little bit of this feedback is from that angle, (I couldn't do it , how can you even think you can ), but most is straight from years of experince talking about how difficult both emotionally and time wise it is to be a success at it, as well as having huge fincial resrves to live on during losing streaks, all of which is true and must be considered.

Now as for my life and my choices in it and those thinking I am lazy and a bum have never driven a truck for months on end with no home time and days and days and days behind the wheel going and going and going some more, and being too stupid to get and walk or speak up and say enough I need a break and not be taken for granted as someone who will get the next load there on time no matter what, legal or not, and if not then there is always someone who will, 15 years of trucking does not make me lazy, stupid and dumb maybe, choosing to do as I am told , very stupid now after the fact, but how many do you know that just went to the factory day after day, are they different than me , yes and no, yes they had a home, I did not, they had benifits I did not, but this is getting off track again and I will stop here, but I was attacked as lazy and schemeing, you do not know me, so until you meet me and know me enough already, I am homeless no more and slowly getting healthier each day, and if trying to learn from others who have done what I want to do is wrong so be it, but ti is not, it is called obtaining an apprenticeship, which takes time and years , of whicch I am willing to committ to doing, but it is how you learn what you are after, you find someone to teach you how they did it, apprenticeship rather a writer or home inspector, landlord or investor, day trader or horse player , they all learned how to do it at one time by someone else, didin't they??

Sorry for this rant but I was attacked personally and do not like that, call me names but do not call me a schemer or con man, my desire is horse's and winning, and I will accomplish this, rather you like it or not, I will be a winner and because I am not business savy, so what, I am barely educated and doing fine, I am on the right track now at 46yrs old, yes it took awhile but I am focused now and will succeed soon enough, as for business I am still baffled and looking into what I could do, I think writing may be something, but the doors are still unseen to me to knock on them, and yes my hours now are long and wrong for me, but a job is a job for now , until something better comes along, and in time it will as I am moving up one step at a time and one day at a time, and instead of accusing me of things here, how bout suggestions for earning that would be realistic for me to do, y'all know me and my situation by now, transportation seems to be my folly, but writing these posts seems to be fun too, as well as winning at the horse's too, day trading to me was always a colloge educated thing, well is it or not? How bout a Chicken Terrayki place here like they have on every corner in the Northwest, like Seattle, where they are everywhere, and successful too, why not have one here, or a drive thru coffee stand, the idea's are in the mind , but excution is seen as just too far out of reach yet, but trying to get there is never going to end, as just one would be enough to help me finacially, and am I capable of running these businessess, that I am sure of, common sense and street smarts have seen many people thru life successfully, right? Why not me?

Is it Possible, after all this time and response's I still say it is with the right people to help you and support, (not finacially), you and assisit you along the way, yes it is possible to be a winner in this Game, Bradshaw did it, Doc Sartin did it, Brohamer did it, and many here are doing it at some level or another and some are not making it, but the bottomline is yes it can be done.

64 thousand dollars question is can I do it, I think yes without a doubt I can do it, today, well almost, but soon enough that much I ma sure of, is that too cocky, maybe but I am good now and getting better and with proper training of a few more things i will get good enough for sure, and you may call this a dream, go ahead, I too call it a dream of mine, anmd also a goal of mine too, a goal I will reach one day, I am sure, promise.

I will have to go now and write more later butr digest this tidbit and please no accusations of any kind unless you know me personally as I am not someone not willing to work hard for something, (Physically hard labor is out, but mental and long hours are not out) and put in the time neccessary, and those who know me for awhile see this, like a train I am on track and headed to my destination, so till I have more time to get online, peace...

Patrick