Optional Claiming Races

[FiveWide]

So what is your view on a horse that is entered for the tag in an optional claiming race even though he/she could have chosen to be entered as non claimer. Do you view this as a negative or neutral.

There was a horse entered today at FG OC 50k N1X and clearly had not won an allowance yet was entered for the tag. The horse finished 2nd to last.

Also, if a horse wins an OC race does that count toward his future allowance wins?


Thanks in advance.
-Five

[Robert Goren]

As general rule you can toss any horse that is entered to be claimed. There are few tracks where that isn't true, but not many and no major tracks where entered for a price is a good thing.

[CincyHorseplayer]

If the horse doesn't have to be entered for a tag because it's eligible for the allowance condition then it's negative,unless that barn is trying to cash out totally.A few do.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

As general rule you can toss any horse that is entered to be claimed. There are few tracks where that isn't true, but not many and no major tracks where entered for a price is a good thing.

Not true.

[tbwinner]

Originally Posted by Tom

Not true.

Agree, there are quite a few horses on the GP, NYRA, even HAW/AP circuit that are not quite stakes-quality but can tear it up in the AOC races. At least from what I've seen.

[tbwinner]

Originally Posted by FiveWide

So what is your view on a horse that is entered for the tag in an optional claiming race even though he/she could have chosen to be entered as non claimer. Do you view this as a negative or neutral.

There was a horse entered today at FG OC 50k N1X and clearly had not won an allowance yet was entered for the tag. The horse finished 2nd to last.

Also, if a horse wins an OC race does that count toward his future allowance wins?


Thanks in advance.
-Five

I usually see it as neutral. You usually see this from quite shrewd barns actually, they claim a horse for 15k-20k for example, think highly of him/her, bump up to the 50k n1x Optional and enter in for claim, so if he/she wins they'd still have a n1x condition to run for ...

[FiveWide]

Originally Posted by tbwinner

I usually see it as neutral. You usually see this from quite shrewd barns actually, they claim a horse for 15k-20k for example, think highly of him/her, bump up to the 50k n1x Optional and enter in for claim, so if he/she wins they'd still have a n1x condition to run for ...

So if they are entered for a claim and win they are still eligible for the condition later? But if they're entered for no claim and win they won't be eligible for the conditions later?


-Five

[FiveWide]

Originally Posted by Tom

Not true.

I think Robert was replying in context to my original question which was how do you view a horse entered for a claim but are still eligible for allowance conditions. I don't think he meant to toss any horse entered as a claim no matter whether he met allowance conditions or not.


I know I don't automatically toss claimers if they've met the allowance conditions. But today was the first time I've seen where a horse was still eligible but was entered for the tag. Guess I'll pay closer attention from now on. Before I just assumed if a horse was in for the tag he already met the allowance conditions. This one stood out because there were only 2 pp races.

-Five

[johnhannibalsmith]

Originally Posted by FiveWide

So if they are entered for a claim and win they are still eligible for the condition later? But if they're entered for no claim and win they won't be eligible for the conditions later?


-Five

The condition in question is N1xOc, which is non-winners of a race OTHER THAN maiden, CLAIMING, starter (and in some places, trial) OR optional claiming price. So yes, if you are elgibile for the 1x condition and enter for the claiming price and win, you are considered a winner under the claiming clause, retaining elgibility for the 1x condition. If you are not entered for the price and you win, then you have won the race under allowance conditions and are no longer eligible for the allowance condition, but could run for the optional claiming price.

As tbwinner points out, because in many places the "straight" 1xor2L condition is more common than the one that also includes the optional claiming clause, it can sensible to run for the claiming price if offered and then retain the allowance condition to give you another condition to run in if you end up at a point in the book or at a circuit that doesn't offer an optional claiming clause or the optional price isn't high enough.

[tbwinner]

Originally Posted by FiveWide

So if they are entered for a claim and win they are still eligible for the condition later? But if they're entered for no claim and win they won't be eligible for the conditions later?


-Five

Right, unless I am very mistaken, if the horse is eligible for the n1x part of the condition but chooses to enter in for the tag condition, and wins, it will be eligible for a n1x allowance still.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by CincyHorseplayer

If the horse doesn't have to be entered for a tag because it's eligible for the allowance condition then it's negative,unless that barn is trying to cash out totally.A few do.

If a horse wins for the tag he keeps the condition. Enter a NW2x/$30k for the tag, and win and next time you can run back without the tag. If someone claims him, then they get a horse with a condition. In many places (NY for example) the 3yo Opt/Cl's are very overvalued. A NW1x typically has a $75k tag. Really??? Few of them are $75k horses, so enter for the tag and if someone claims him you are usually better off as you have sold an overpriced asset.

As for not playing the "tag" runners, I disagree. Many times the horses in for the tag are much better and have run through conditions many times over. A horse that would be eligible for a (hypothetical) NW5x is a tough customer against (say) NW2x runners.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Originally Posted by Linny

If a horse wins for the tag he keeps the condition. Enter a NW2x/$30k for the tag, and win and next time you can run back without the tag. If someone claims him, then they get a horse with a condition. In many places (NY for example) the 3yo Opt/Cl's are very overvalued. A NW1x typically has a $75k tag. Really??? Few of them are $75k horses, so enter for the tag and if someone claims him you are usually better off as you have sold an overpriced asset.

As for not playing the "tag" runners, I disagree. Many times the horses in for the tag are much better and have run through conditions many times over. A horse that would be eligible for a (hypothetical) NW5x is a tough customer against (say) NW2x runners.

I play the horses who have beat the condition all the time.I get that.What I'm saying is that if a barn has a younger horse eligible for the allowance condition and they want to keep the horse,they won't enter it for a tag because they want to beat the condition twice.They believe the horse can progress through the next condition soon too.Some stables don't care and approach it all with the payday mentality as you outlined,but not if they truly believe in the horse IMO.If younger and/or lightly raced the tag is usually negative,if an older multiple winner the tag is a positive.If these older,salty types are coming off a layoff or have tailed off they usually aren't cranked.I love the younger non tagged horses stepping up.

The restricted to 2's and 3's pretty much need to be separated from the conversaton here IMO because it's totally a different set of circumstances.

[badcompany]

I fall in between Goren and Tom. I wouldn't auto toss the horse, but, I do regard it as a negative factor.

[Robert Fischer]

It almost has to be a case by case basis.

The horse in question wasn't a contender. At 9-1 he was no overlay.
Nobody wants to spend 50k on a 3yo like that. He may as well run for the tag.

[Fastracehorse]

in these optional claimers if you tag them

they might give the horse a 2 lb allowance for every $2500 shaved off the maximum claiming price

i've seen horses entered for 57,500 in 62,500 optional claimers

there are horses tagged for 25,000 in (25,000 -30,000) n2L - they must get a weight break

and weight has implications for handicapping

fffastt