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Old 09-10-2016, 12:19 PM   #31
thespaah
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Originally Posted by betovernetcapper
It occurred to me that testing after the race may not be the optimal choice. I know this would require some lab equipment, but wouldn't it be better to take a blood test two hours before the race & keep the horse under supervision until the race? That way if the horse was positive, he could be scratched & no harm would be done to the players.

After a horse has raced a few times at a track, his normal blood work should be evident & if it showed some major change, the matter could be addressed before the race, even if he's not showing positive for a banned substance. The change might be due to a substance not yet banned. People are always attempting new things to beat the system. If the horse isn't scratched, the announcer could say in race three, #1A has irregular blood work. Players could adjust their bets accordingly.

Tests could still be done after the race & if the blood work is different, it would be easier to determine the culprit.

IMO if something could be done along these lines, it would pretty much stop any illegal drug use.
Pre race testing is a fantastic idea. However, equipment must be set up to quickly analyze results and then create a report.
The rest of it is easy. All horses tested then go to a detention barn where armed security people are stationed to watch over the horses and attendant personnel.
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Old 09-10-2016, 01:02 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by thespaah
The issue at hand is this. Too many trainers are being slapped on the wirst with a stern "don't ever do that again" and for the next 6 months they are one their best behavior. As soon as they get the perception that no one is looking, they start up again.
My point here is I want the crooks out of the game.
I look to the way Japan, Hong Kong racing associations operate regarding drugs and cheating. They have rules to which horsemen follow to the letter.
Here in the US, the rules are treated as "suggestions" because the penalties are so mild. Substances such as Meth and Cocaine should not be present in a horse racing barn in ANY quantity. This idea of cross contamination is absurd. Why? Because in order for that stuff to be detected, someone had to knowingly transport it into the barn. Knowingly as in deliberately violating the rules and laws.
Call me a hard ass. One of the perceptions that keeps some people away from the game is that certain so called super trainers are cheating all over the place while track managements look the other way. The average bettor gets the shaft and eventually finds the game too difficult and eventually walks away....
Everyone wants the crooks out of the game.

When you think of trainers who got a slap on the wrist, who are you thinking of? What about jurisdictions where rules are treated as suggestions? Which ones come to mind? I assume you follow this stuff closely and you've got some statistics to back up your claim.

How exactly do you think cross-contamination occurs? Here's a true story. A stable girl has a cat and the cat gets an ear infection. The vet gives her a topical steroid to treat the infection. She applies it to the cat's ear, and later puts a bit in a horse's mouth. The horse tests positive for the topical steroid at a very small picogram level. The trainer goes into the hearing with the stewards with the stable girl, the tube of the topical steroid, and pretty clear testimony that it was cross contamination. Did he get a slap on the wrist? Actually, no. He was found culpable and fined anyway.

Here's another true story. A horse trailer was used as a meth lab. After the drug makers were nabbed and convicted, the trailer was sold at auction. It was carefully cleaned and went into service as a horse trailer. A horse that was transported in the trailer tested positive for meth, again at a very low picogram level. They tested the trailer, and sure enough there was still residual meth in the trailer. So in your mind, should the trainer have been fined and suspended for what was cross-contamination on the part of a horse transport company?

One thing we agree on is that there are perceptions about how rampant cheating is. Unfortunately, the facts don't support many of the perceptions. I've spent enough time on the backside to know that there is a significant difference between the super trainers and the blue collar guys, only it doesn't have to do with PEDs. There is a significant difference in the horseflesh the super trainers have. No broken down rehabilitation projects in their stable. There is a significant difference in being able to afford to give horses that have minor injuries sufficient time to recover. There is a significant difference in the quality of feed and dietary supplements. There is a significant difference in the ratio of grooms to horses. The super trainers never put off shoeing a horse for a week or two just to save a few bucks. Super trainers don't skimp on vet care. They have chiropractors and massage therapists.

One half of one percent of all tests come back positive, which is about as good as you would see in any major sport. Most of those positives are for legal therapeutics. About 0.001% are for Class 1 or 2 substances. Yes, we agree that horse racing has a perception problem.

One last thing. If you believe most people lose and leave the game because of cheating trainers, you haven't sat if front of three drunk guys trying to figure out what a three horse trifecta box costs. There are plenty of things wrong with horse racing that are more important to bettors than drugs.
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Old 09-10-2016, 06:35 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing
Everyone wants the crooks out of the game.

When you think of trainers who got a slap on the wrist, who are you thinking of? What about jurisdictions where rules are treated as suggestions? Which ones come to mind? I assume you follow this stuff closely and you've got some statistics to back up your claim.

How exactly do you think cross-contamination occurs? Here's a true story. A stable girl has a cat and the cat gets an ear infection. The vet gives her a topical steroid to treat the infection. She applies it to the cat's ear, and later puts a bit in a horse's mouth. The horse tests positive for the topical steroid at a very small picogram level. The trainer goes into the hearing with the stewards with the stable girl, the tube of the topical steroid, and pretty clear testimony that it was cross contamination. Did he get a slap on the wrist? Actually, no. He was found culpable and fined anyway.

Here's another true story. A horse trailer was used as a meth lab. After the drug makers were nabbed and convicted, the trailer was sold at auction. It was carefully cleaned and went into service as a horse trailer. A horse that was transported in the trailer tested positive for meth, again at a very low picogram level. They tested the trailer, and sure enough there was still residual meth in the trailer. So in your mind, should the trainer have been fined and suspended for what was cross-contamination on the part of a horse transport company?

One thing we agree on is that there are perceptions about how rampant cheating is. Unfortunately, the facts don't support many of the perceptions. I've spent enough time on the backside to know that there is a significant difference between the super trainers and the blue collar guys, only it doesn't have to do with PEDs. There is a significant difference in the horseflesh the super trainers have. No broken down rehabilitation projects in their stable. There is a significant difference in being able to afford to give horses that have minor injuries sufficient time to recover. There is a significant difference in the quality of feed and dietary supplements. There is a significant difference in the ratio of grooms to horses. The super trainers never put off shoeing a horse for a week or two just to save a few bucks. Super trainers don't skimp on vet care. They have chiropractors and massage therapists.

One half of one percent of all tests come back positive, which is about as good as you would see in any major sport. Most of those positives are for legal therapeutics. About 0.001% are for Class 1 or 2 substances. Yes, we agree that horse racing has a perception problem.

One last thing. If you believe most people lose and leave the game because of cheating trainers, you haven't sat if front of three drunk guys trying to figure out what a three horse trifecta box costs. There are plenty of things wrong with horse racing that are more important to bettors than drugs.
I'm think of incidents that prompted me to start this thread.
The scenarios you presented are so rare, they are statistically near impossible to repeat.
The issue here is in your second to last paragraph. The perception.
Why the US cannot take a page out of the books of other jurisdictions where any kind of drug violations are met with stern sanctions and mandate those is a mystery.
"There are plenty of things wrong with horse racing that are more important to bettors than drugs."
On that we will have to agree to disagree.

Last edited by thespaah; 09-10-2016 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 09-11-2016, 08:54 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by thespaah
The scenarios you presented are so rare, they are statistically near impossible to repeat.

"There are plenty of things wrong with horse racing that are more important to bettors than drugs."
On that we will have to agree to disagree.
I wish they were rare. They unfortunately are not. They happen regularly. But that is not the point. The point is that one trainer stained with a Class 1 violation because of clear cross contamination is one too many.

On the last point I guarantee you have lost far more money because of the high takeout rates, arbitrary stewards decisions, and bad rides than you ever will from horses beating your horse because of PEDs.

Check out the DRF survey on racing. For experienced horseplayers, drugs, including Lasix, are low on the list of problems.

In addition, the survey results showed that bettors overwhelmingly believe that horsemen are getting away with using illicit drugs that affect horses’ performances on race day despite little evidence that cheating is widespread in racing, such as a glut of positive drug tests for illicit drugs or the seizure of illegal substances at racetracks or training centers.

http://www.drf.com/news/survey-lasix...d-low-priority

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.
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Old 09-11-2016, 11:15 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by thespaah
..I forgot to post the darn link. I read it on paulickreport.com



Are you going to post the link so we can know what trainers they are talking about?
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Old 09-11-2016, 12:32 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Donttellmeshowme
Are you going to post the link so we can know what trainers they are talking about?
Surely by now you could have searched the Paulick Report in the time it took you to post.
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Old 09-11-2016, 12:57 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

One thing we agree on is that there are perceptions about how rampant cheating is. Unfortunately, the facts don't support many of the perceptions. I've spent enough time on the backside to know that there is a significant difference between the super trainers and the blue collar guys, only it doesn't have to do with PEDs. There is a significant difference in the horseflesh the super trainers have. No broken down rehabilitation projects in their stable. There is a significant difference in being able to afford to give horses that have minor injuries sufficient time to recover. There is a significant difference in the quality of feed and dietary supplements. There is a significant difference in the ratio of grooms to horses. The super trainers never put off shoeing a horse for a week or two just to save a few bucks. Super trainers don't skimp on vet care. They have chiropractors and massage therapists.

One half of one percent of all tests come back positive, which is about as good as you would see in any major sport. Most of those positives are for legal therapeutics. About 0.001% are for Class 1 or 2 substances. Yes, we agree that horse racing has a perception problem.
Rich: it's clear that you don't believe that drugs are a problem in racing but these quotes from above are just don't illustrate the real landscape that exists today.
The major problem in racing right now is EPO use and micro dosing that gives regulators about a 4-hour window to catch a trainer dosing a horse that will race 10-15 days after dosing.
Testing is useless because today's designer drugs with micro-dosing will never show up in post-race testing. It's exactly the same blueprint that BALCO used. Barry Bonds, Lance Armstrong and others were always way ahead of testing. So are today's trainers.
Testing post race will never catch anyone using EPO today.

You have been given backstretch access but that doesn't make what you saw and what you were "allowed" to see to be gospel. Do you think because O'Neil and Gorder allowed you in their stables and let you observe and you didn't see anything in your visits that they must be clean?

You were shown what they wanted you to see and if they were cheating then they certainly would not have allowed you to see it.
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Old 09-11-2016, 03:49 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing
There are plenty of things wrong with horse racing that are more important to bettors than drugs.
I don't want to downplay the drug problem, but I completely agree with your above statement. The proliferation of alternative forms of gambling (lower takeout alternatives) have done more to damage racing than drugs in racing. One could easily argue the industry was/is too slow to react to increased competition, but it's still a bigger factor than drugs. I think we need major drug reform in racing, especially on the penalty side for repeat offenders, but such action won't resurrect the game, imo.
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Old 09-11-2016, 04:32 PM   #39
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Surely by now you could have searched the Paulick Report in the time it took you to post.
Thank you.
Sometimes the entitlement mentality of some Americans has me tearing out what is left of my hair.
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Old 09-11-2016, 04:40 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Donttellmeshowme
Are you going to post the link so we can know what trainers they are talking about?
This took me a grand total of 5 freakin seconds.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/th...ine-positives/
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Old 09-11-2016, 07:05 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by GatetoWire
Rich: it's clear that you don't believe that drugs are a problem in racing but these quotes from above are just don't illustrate the real landscape that exists today.
The major problem in racing right now is EPO use and micro dosing that gives regulators about a 4-hour window to catch a trainer dosing a horse that will race 10-15 days after dosing.
Testing is useless because today's designer drugs with micro-dosing will never show up in post-race testing. It's exactly the same blueprint that BALCO used. Barry Bonds, Lance Armstrong and others were always way ahead of testing. So are today's trainers.
Testing post race will never catch anyone using EPO today.

You have been given backstretch access but that doesn't make what you saw and what you were "allowed" to see to be gospel. Do you think because O'Neil and Gorder allowed you in their stables and let you observe and you didn't see anything in your visits that they must be clean?

You were shown what they wanted you to see and if they were cheating then they certainly would not have allowed you to see it.
I'm certainly not naive, and I want to be clear that there are trainers who look for any edge they can. I also want to be clear that any trainer who purposely looks for an edge should be dealt with harshly. I've spent a lot of time with a lot of trainers and I'm just having a hard time believing 95% of them have to cheat, much less they do cheat. Maybe 5% do, and they aren't Fletcher or Chad Brown or Baffert.

The one thing I didn't say is that there is a serious failure on the part of racing commissions and it is two fold. One, spending pretty much all the enforcement money on post race testing is not a good policy. There is not a security agency in the world that eschews prevention in favor of trying to catch scofflaws after they have committed the crime. Two, many - not all - of the people on racing commissions are political appointees who are woefully underqualified for the job.

The focus on prosecuting blood or urine test positives without doing any investigation is part of the reason why we have trainers getting nailed for positives that are likely cross contamination. What the tracks need to realize is that they need to have a security presence and an investigative capability so trainers think twice about keeping illegal substances around and that anyone personally using illegal substances should be found and ruled off the track.

Here's a simple concept. If you never set up a speed trap, you'll never catch speeders, and if drivers know where speed traps are often set up they'll slow down.

Pre-race testing and out of competition testing should be part of every enforcement program.

I've heard the EPO argument and I want to say I've had this discussion before on this board. I've asked my experts who I work with (vets and equine pharmacologists) about the charge that these EPO's are in use, widespread or otherwise. I can only tell you what they tell me. EPOs do not have the same effect on horses that they have on humans because of how the equine spleen works.

I read the Paulick Report piece on EPO. Paulick obtained a copy of a letter written by a veterinarian who he keeps anonymous, and who denies ever having written the letter. Two things about the letter are interesting.

Also need to be giving iron (pills or shots), folic acid, B12 + an anabolic steroid (Equipoise or Winstrol) and don't overtrain. The horse has to be healthy and not exhausted to build red cells. The steroids put the horse into a building state and the B12, folic acid and iron are all needed in increased amounts to make the increased number of red cells.

So it apparently isn't a simple case of injecting EPOs and sitting back and waiting for the result. First, remember that Epogen is a controlled substance and you have to have a legal or illegal dealer. If the dealer is legal, it's traceable. Second, Winstrol is no longer sold. If you want to get the generic you have to go to a compounding pharmacy, and if it is a legal pharmacy it is traceable.

A red cell lives for about 100 days so do monitor the CBC's. Too much Epogen could lead to strokes and/or heart attacks, and in the horse, may increase the likelihood of bleeding in a race.

And remember that if a horse dies suspiciously in most jurisdictions a necropsy is required.

All this is to say if a trainer is getting drugs legally they are traceable, making my suggestion that active rather than just passive enforcement is needed. If they are getting drugs illegally, it would be harder to find, and of course impossible if you do no investigation at all. But you have to probably involve a vet, who by doing it puts his license at risk. You have to obtain some legal over the counter drugs (B-12 and Iron) which are traceable. The Balco type lab has to have a big enough client base to make it profitable. You have to do blood testing (also traceable) and you have to have somebody carefully watching the dosing so you don't give a horse a stroke or a heart attack. You run the risk of increasing bleeding, which winds up undoing any good you might have done with the Epogen.

I'm not telling you it doesn't happen. I'm telling you that you can't find medical and pharmacological experts that believe it has an effect beyond what we see due to the equine spleen. In the relaxed horse, not all red blood cells are in use. Extra cells (about 30% of the total) are stored in the spleen, a large organ located in the horse’s abdominal cavity between the left kidney and the small colon. When the horse performs strenuous exercise, the spleen contracts, pushing these extra red blood cells into circulation and thus greatly increasing the oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood.

This simply doesn't happen in humans, which is why EPO was in popular use. Give me one statistic, even a small study that shows the red blood cell count increases beyond what happens when the spleen contracts.

I'm also telling you that the complications arising from using it create a lot of risk, especially considering you have to use steroids and vitamins. A trainer can't keep any of this stuff on hand. He may have to make his vet and the testing lab complicit. He may have to find an illegal source and keep it secret, no small feat on the backside.

But mostly I'm telling you an aggressive enforcement program that doesn't wait until you get a positive to spring into action finds these kind of things eventually. They got Balco that way.

Last edited by HalvOnHorseracing; 09-11-2016 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 09-11-2016, 11:04 PM   #42
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Surely by now you could have searched the Paulick Report in the time it took you to post.


Nope was hoping he would put the link up when he made the thread.
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Old 09-11-2016, 11:08 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by thespaah
This took me a grand total of 5 freakin seconds.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/th...ine-positives/


Thank you so much.
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Old 09-11-2016, 11:15 PM   #44
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Nope was hoping he would put the link up when he made the thread.
...but still felt the need tosay it again?
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Old 09-11-2016, 11:17 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing
I'm certainly not naive, and I want to be clear that there are trainers who look for any edge they can. I also want to be clear that any trainer who purposely looks for an edge should be dealt with harshly. I've spent a lot of time with a lot of trainers and I'm just having a hard time believing 95% of them have to cheat, much less they do cheat. Maybe 5% do, and they aren't Fletcher or Chad Brown or Baffert.

The one thing I didn't say is that there is a serious failure on the part of racing commissions and it is two fold. One, spending pretty much all the enforcement money on post race testing is not a good policy. There is not a security agency in the world that eschews prevention in favor of trying to catch scofflaws after they have committed the crime. Two, many - not all - of the people on racing commissions are political appointees who are woefully underqualified for the job.

The focus on prosecuting blood or urine test positives without doing any investigation is part of the reason why we have trainers getting nailed for positives that are likely cross contamination. What the tracks need to realize is that they need to have a security presence and an investigative capability so trainers think twice about keeping illegal substances around and that anyone personally using illegal substances should be found and ruled off the track.

Here's a simple concept. If you never set up a speed trap, you'll never catch speeders, and if drivers know where speed traps are often set up they'll slow down.

Pre-race testing and out of competition testing should be part of every enforcement program.

I've heard the EPO argument and I want to say I've had this discussion before on this board. I've asked my experts who I work with (vets and equine pharmacologists) about the charge that these EPO's are in use, widespread or otherwise. I can only tell you what they tell me. EPOs do not have the same effect on horses that they have on humans because of how the equine spleen works.

I read the Paulick Report piece on EPO. Paulick obtained a copy of a letter written by a veterinarian who he keeps anonymous, and who denies ever having written the letter. Two things about the letter are interesting.

Also need to be giving iron (pills or shots), folic acid, B12 + an anabolic steroid (Equipoise or Winstrol) and don't overtrain. The horse has to be healthy and not exhausted to build red cells. The steroids put the horse into a building state and the B12, folic acid and iron are all needed in increased amounts to make the increased number of red cells.

So it apparently isn't a simple case of injecting EPOs and sitting back and waiting for the result. First, remember that Epogen is a controlled substance and you have to have a legal or illegal dealer. If the dealer is legal, it's traceable. Second, Winstrol is no longer sold. If you want to get the generic you have to go to a compounding pharmacy, and if it is a legal pharmacy it is traceable.

A red cell lives for about 100 days so do monitor the CBC's. Too much Epogen could lead to strokes and/or heart attacks, and in the horse, may increase the likelihood of bleeding in a race.

And remember that if a horse dies suspiciously in most jurisdictions a necropsy is required.

All this is to say if a trainer is getting drugs legally they are traceable, making my suggestion that active rather than just passive enforcement is needed. If they are getting drugs illegally, it would be harder to find, and of course impossible if you do no investigation at all. But you have to probably involve a vet, who by doing it puts his license at risk. You have to obtain some legal over the counter drugs (B-12 and Iron) which are traceable. The Balco type lab has to have a big enough client base to make it profitable. You have to do blood testing (also traceable) and you have to have somebody carefully watching the dosing so you don't give a horse a stroke or a heart attack. You run the risk of increasing bleeding, which winds up undoing any good you might have done with the Epogen.

I'm not telling you it doesn't happen. I'm telling you that you can't find medical and pharmacological experts that believe it has an effect beyond what we see due to the equine spleen. In the relaxed horse, not all red blood cells are in use. Extra cells (about 30% of the total) are stored in the spleen, a large organ located in the horse’s abdominal cavity between the left kidney and the small colon. When the horse performs strenuous exercise, the spleen contracts, pushing these extra red blood cells into circulation and thus greatly increasing the oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood.

This simply doesn't happen in humans, which is why EPO was in popular use. Give me one statistic, even a small study that shows the red blood cell count increases beyond what happens when the spleen contracts.

I'm also telling you that the complications arising from using it create a lot of risk, especially considering you have to use steroids and vitamins. A trainer can't keep any of this stuff on hand. He may have to make his vet and the testing lab complicit. He may have to find an illegal source and keep it secret, no small feat on the backside.

But mostly I'm telling you an aggressive enforcement program that doesn't wait until you get a positive to spring into action finds these kind of things eventually. They got Balco that way.



EPO does have the same effect on horses as it does humans. Dont let a vet tell you any different. EPO produces more red blood cells which in turn gives a horse or human more oxygen then more energy. Same effect.
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