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08-23-2009, 04:05 PM
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#1
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gelding
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,883
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Signers
As a nickel and dime player (and a lousy one at that), I've never had a signer in my short horse betting career. The most I've ever won on a single bet was well under the $600 signer threshold.
Anyway, I was wondering about the tax ramifications. A few yrs back, my wife (when she was still my g/f), once won about $800 in a NYS Lottery game. Come tax time, she had to claim the $200 that was over and above the $600, and that $200 then came off the refund she was due. The lottery office gave her form w-2g (I think) which she was required to file.
So do signers work likewise? They eat into your tax refund (if you're due one), and you'll actually have to pay if the amount of signers exceeds your refund?
Do all tracks/OTBs also provide you with form w-2g and you're responsible for the taxes? Do any tracks take the taxes at time of payout?
Is there any way to "get around" paying the taxes on signer winnings? 
I'd like to hear people's experiences...
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08-23-2009, 04:14 PM
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#2
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Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,908
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You can only write off your losings to the extent of your winnings and not more. It is unlikely that you'll get audited for gambling winnings but if you do you better have good records. I was audited in 1997 for a large score. It was a nightmare. When you play on line there is no wiggle room because even non "irs sign up" winnings are recorded. When you play live there is wiggle room.
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08-23-2009, 05:18 PM
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#3
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velocitician
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 26,295
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Come up here.......... there is NEVER a "signer" for ANY wager ever.
__________________
"If this world is all about winners, what's for the losers?" Jr. Bonner: "Well somebody's got to hold the horses Ace."
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08-23-2009, 05:51 PM
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
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Hey, I get a chance to red board.
I had a signer this week at Saratoga. A $6,112.00 triple. They took $1,527.00 in taxes.
I was approached by a "ten percenter", but I love my freedom too much.
Best tax advice? Pay the taxes.
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08-23-2009, 06:12 PM
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#5
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 2,277
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tape Reader
Hey, I get a chance to red board.
I had a signer this week at Saratoga. A $6,112.00 triple. They took $1,527.00 in taxes.
I was approached by a "ten percenter", but I love my freedom too much.
Best tax advice? Pay the taxes.
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Amen to that Brudddah! It's always best to have them take it out at the time you get paid. Then you don't have to worry about it at tax time. I wouldn't give anyone a percentage just to screw Uncle Sam and have to worry about audits etc.
A lot to be said about a clear conscience. (JMHO)
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08-23-2009, 06:19 PM
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#6
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gelding
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,883
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So (some?) tracks give you the choice if you want the tax taken at payout or later when you file?
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08-23-2009, 06:32 PM
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: oakmont pa
Posts: 4,828
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no, its automatic they take out
Last edited by judd; 08-23-2009 at 06:32 PM.
Reason: misspel
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08-23-2009, 07:00 PM
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 300
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by judd
no, its automatic they take out
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Only if it a tax ticket (>299-1) AND it is over $5,000. Otherwise they do not take out and just give you a W2G.
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08-23-2009, 07:02 PM
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,960
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by judd
no, its automatic they take out
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--------------------------------------------------------- Last edited by judd : Today at 05:32 PM. Reason: misspel
x 2
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08-23-2009, 08:48 PM
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#10
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 2,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tape Reader
Hey, I get a chance to red board.
I had a signer this week at Saratoga. A $6,112.00 triple. They took $1,527.00 in taxes.
I was approached by a "ten percenter", but I love my freedom too much.
Best tax advice? Pay the taxes.
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Too bad that your $1,527.00 won't buy you one second of freedom. Maybe I should come up there and buy tickets for 95%, I love the look clerks get on their faces when I tell them that is no law that compels me to authorize the withholding by signing anything. And, that without my authorization, there is none.
jdl
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08-23-2009, 08:52 PM
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#11
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 2,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bruddah
Amen to that Brudddah! It's always best to have them take it out at the time you get paid. Then you don't have to worry about it at tax time. I wouldn't give anyone a percentage just to screw Uncle Sam and have to worry about audits etc.
A lot to be said about a clear conscience. (JMHO)
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To bad you couldn't have been there on the Lexington-Concorde bridge, to explain that it is always better to complie with the whimsy of the Prince.
jdl
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08-23-2009, 09:31 PM
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: JCapper Platinum: Kind of like Deep Blue... but for horses.
Posts: 5,290
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I have to ask...
JDL, what happens when you tell them that?
Do they decide not to withhold?
Do they pay out without making you sign?
Or do they hand the ticket back to you and say: "Why don't you hang on to this then. Bring it back here when you're ready to show proper id, sign, and get your money."
-jp
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__________________
Team JCapper: 2011 PAIHL Regular Season ROI Leader after 15 weeks
www.JCapper.com
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08-23-2009, 09:39 PM
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#13
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,581
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by judd
no, its automatic they take out
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No its not..
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08-23-2009, 09:59 PM
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#14
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Smartass
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 592
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jeff P
I have to ask...
JDL, what happens when you tell them that?
Do they decide not to withhold?
Do they pay out without making you sign?
Or do they hand the ticket back to you and say: "Why don't you hang on to this then. Bring it back here when you're ready to show proper id, sign, and get your money."
-jp
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I could be wrong, but I don't think they make you sign on $3.20 winners.
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08-23-2009, 10:32 PM
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#15
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 2,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jeff P
I have to ask...
JDL, what happens when you tell them that?
Do they decide not to withhold?
Do they pay out without making you sign?
Or do they hand the ticket back to you and say: "Why don't you hang on to this then. Bring it back here when you're ready to show proper id, sign, and get your money."
-jp
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Usually, on a first go-round, a supervisor is sent for. Then I explain that anyone that wishes to withhold certainly may, but, if they do not have a legal authority to do so, they will be subjecting themselves to my legal action. Because I will not give them any legal authority by signing a form.
That could be messy, and none of the entities involved want any publicity on these matters, and nobody wants to be put in the position of proving that I am a taxpayer, and for them to make such a determination would be a crime if they have no authority to make such determinations.
The little bit of arguement I do get is designed to either discover that I don't know what I'm talking about, or to intimidate me into backing down. I don't back down when I am right.
Nobody wants to go to jail, including IRS agents and those third parties that operate their scams through.
You'd be surprised how many rights you have, if you were simply willing to believe that you have rights in the first place. The risk, is only in your head.
jdl
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