Sports Wagering one step closer in NJ....

[Longshot6977]

I think one of the reasons that NJ online casino gambling is decreasing or just not catching on is that most people don't know how or where to fund their account or get back winnings (if any). They should've made it simple like TVG and let their customers use Greendot Moneypaks. And many credit card companies don't allow casino gaming funding to/from their accounts.

[bks]

Originally Posted by Canarsie

Whoever does the numbers is lying before they get started. Let me list reasons why this will be an epic failure.

Seriously how many people are going to drive to the track to place a bet?

Does the track extend credit for a few days if the account is negative?

Will they send a courier to deliver your money in the rare case you make a big taxable (if they decide to) hit? Will they send someone if you won $100? Will they pay for your gas and time to collect your winnings?

Where do you have a better chance being robbed? After collecting at the track or being paid at a mutually agreed place by a runner?

If you want to try and get even the next day will they take your action over the phone?

Will the state be intelligent enough to stop a wise guy from hitting the middle and clean up do to their stupidity?


I don't know a single soul who would drive from my area to Monmouth (less than 15 miles) to place a wager. Do an unscientific survey and ask your friends that question. My hunch is the only time they will say "yes" is if they are at the track already.


The wise guys will pound them into the ground the first few weeks do you really think a government official is smart enough to oversee something like this?

Just like when OTB opened up the big winners will be the bookies. People are already playing the same slot games offered in NJ for years on the offshore sites in Costa Rica. Once again the credit thing comes into it along with John Q. Public not wanting the wife to know.

This is doomed for failure before it even starts. Even poker in NJ has been extremely disappointing.

New Jersey Online Poker Revenues Drop Another 12 Percent in May

http://pokerfuse.com/news/industry/2...2-percent-may/


Knowledgeable dissenting views are always welcome.

I think this analysis is pretty flawed, mostly because you;re underestimating the great draw of sports betting and the population density in and around NJ.

You have somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 million people within 2 hrs drive of AC who gamble on sports in some fashion. For every 1% of them come to AC or a sports betting parlor each year and stay for just a single evening, that's tens of millions of dollars in taxable non-gambling revenues right off the bat (rooms, meals, shows, etc).

Second, having a bookie need not be an exclusive relationship. As with marijuana, there is a huge conformist segment of the population that will only indulge in sports betting in a regular fashion if it is given the stamp of legitimacy. They'd welcome a good reason to come to AC for a night in the fall/winter.

Casual-to-serious bettors from the east coast plan trips to Vegas for the Super Bowl and for the NCAA tournament every year because of legalized sports betting. Give that to NJ Casinos, and you are talking about full hotels for three or four extra weekends during the winter/spring, not to mention the added occupancy from Thanksgiving, the NFL playoffs, bowl season, etc.

With sports betting spicing up the offerings, I imagine the Breeders Cup weekend will also be packed, as will the Derby and other Triple Crown Saturdays.

As for the "average" football weekend in the fall, there are plenty of people within a 30-minute radius who will come to the casino/racetrack instead of a sports bar, simply to watch every out of town game for free without pressure to eat/drink. While they're there, they'll bet a little.

In 2012, $3.45 billion was legally wagered in Nevada’s sports books. If NJ does 25% of that, you're talking about more than $1B in add'l renevue for the state once peripherals are added in. That's a very big deal.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by Canarsie

Whoever does the numbers is lying before they get started. Let me list reasons why this will be an epic failure.

Seriously how many people are going to drive to the track to place a bet?

Does the track extend credit for a few days if the account is negative?

Will they send a courier to deliver your money in the rare case you make a big taxable (if they decide to) hit? Will they send someone if you won $100? Will they pay for your gas and time to collect your winnings?

Where do you have a better chance being robbed? After collecting at the track or being paid at a mutually agreed place by a runner?

If you want to try and get even the next day will they take your action over the phone?

Will the state be intelligent enough to stop a wise guy from hitting the middle and clean up do to their stupidity?


I don't know a single soul who would drive from my area to Monmouth (less than 15 miles) to place a wager. Do an unscientific survey and ask your friends that question. My hunch is the only time they will say "yes" is if they are at the track already.


The wise guys will pound them into the ground the first few weeks do you really think a government official is smart enough to oversee something like this?

Just like when OTB opened up the big winners will be the bookies. People are already playing the same slot games offered in NJ for years on the offshore sites in Costa Rica. Once again the credit thing comes into it along with John Q. Public not wanting the wife to know.

This is doomed for failure before it even starts. Even poker in NJ has been extremely disappointing.

New Jersey Online Poker Revenues Drop Another 12 Percent in May

http://pokerfuse.com/news/industry/2...2-percent-may/


Knowledgeable dissenting views are always welcome.

There's NOT a single soul who wouldn't drive 15 mins on a Saturday to bet the entire NFL card and bet some college action while they are there.

[Redboard]

Originally Posted by Canarsie

Again please explain to me how this has anything to do with the governor who you ripped when certain things are beyond his control. He pledged tax cuts but there are none because the legislature balked. Same deal with Atlantic City but now you are concentrating solely on Camden.

The aquarium was a mistake the day it was conceived lets go all the way back to 1994

Camden's Aquarium Risks Ignominy; Drab Exhibits a Problem as Complex Fails to Lift Waterfront

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/17/ny...ails-lift.html

What a tremendous waste of taxpayer money people choose to spend their money elsewhere.

The 76ers got a $82 million dollar tax break to locate there another waste of taxpayer dollars. People don't go watch them in the regular season how many will watch practice besides their inept (evaluating basketball they stole this money) executives. This isn't even a NJ team the EDA should be disbanded.

You kill the governor for investing $263 million but its ok for 82 mil to be spent on this disgrace. Be consistent at least it will enhance your argument slightly.


There will be more security people at the complex than visitors even from the immediate area. If they charge even a dollar it will be a ghost town. If its free I can only imagine the crowd that goes in there to escape the heat.

You might be the only person to attempt to walk across the bridge but I'll put the odds at 100/1. Please inform me if you attempt it. A pic fron the middle of the bridge would be appreciated.

Why not build two racetracks within five miles of each other Philly is in the top fifteen cities visited in the U.S. Build it as close to Parx as you can according to your logic. We need to spend more taxpayer dollars on stuff like this right?

How many of these visitors go into Camden? If you can find me a stat that shows 5% I'll fold my cards and declare you the champ.

I don’t know why you think that casinos must be built in mister Rodgers neighborhoods to be successful. Many people said the same thing when the idea first surfaced of putting casinos in Atlantic City back in the 70s – that it would never work in such a bad neighborhood - by end of the 1980s it was the most popular tourist destination in the United States and a cash cow for the garden state.
The two casinos in/near Philadelphia - Chester, PA(Harrah’s), and in a Philadelphia neighborhood call Fishtown (Sugarhouse Casino), are in two crime-ridden areas and yet they are printing money ; the mayor of Philadelphia, wants to build another one. I’m not a businessman, but I do understand the principle of “location, location, location.” It wasn’t that long ago that if someone wanted to legally play a game of poker or blackjack with other people, one had to travel a long way to do that. No so today and the closer a casino is to those “customers” , the better IMO.
As far as the $82 million investment in the 76ers facility, we don’t know if it’s a disgrace yet, do we? It’s a gamble that could pay off- you or I have no way of knowing at this time. It’s certainly a better gamble than another casino in AC, if I were an odds maker.


As far as walking across the Ben Franklin Bridge, I have done that many times, most recently with a hiking group I belong to called “Hiking Around Philly Meetup” on 6/22/14. That’s me in the orange shirt and white hat.

http://www.meetup.com/HikingAroundPh...bumId=22738732

[onefast99]

[QUOTE=biggestal99]1. What if they are there already playing the ponies. Sports bettors are horse bettors.

2. Will Hill is running the show at Monmouth, How do they operate successfully in the UK?

3. Robbed at after betting sports and collecting at Monmouth? oh sure nobody ever hits big playing the ponies there I guess. I have had 5 figure hits at Monmouth, I wasn't concerned about getting robbed.

4. Will Hill runs the show. are US wiseguys any different than UK wiseguys.

5. See 4.

Allan
Asher is not running the show at MP he has the sports bar which is set up to take the sports wagering action once it goes green. Drazin and the horsemen have the show under control at this point with Darby Development looking for new ways to bring revenue into the fold.

[Hambletonian]

Sports Betting is not about generating funds. the takeout is small (except for sucker bet parlay cards), and money is tied up for a long time...2 or 3 hours, instead of a few minutes for horse races or less for slot machines...it really reduces churn.

it is also not a big favorite of the las vegas corporate types, with the exception of Cantor Gaming, since unlike practically every other form of gambling, the house can lose.

sports betting is just like a tasty appetizer to get more bodies into the casino.

i am not saying it will never happen, i never thought marijuana legalization would get a foothold, I just don't believe there are as many corporate dollars in favor of this as those that are opposed, and that is all that matters today in the USA.

[biggestal99]

One other interesting possibly that I forget (thanks to john Brennan of meadowlands matter blog) is the Christie conditional veto which is one that Christie and the state lawyers don,t like the language but suggests new language to take its place. Once passed by the legislature it becomes law. Christie did this with online gaming law

Allan

[mgoldie1]

Allan, I can't imagine what other language he could use in a conditional veto. I don't think the state can state any violations, fines, etc. for anything "shady." They can't add language that keeps "non authorized" entities from being involved at the tracks. I don't think they can state anything about monies allocated to a GA fund.

In my opinion, I think it's an all or nothing for Christie. My gut feeling is he vetoes it with the fear of getting involved with more lawsuits and costing taxpayers more money (the lawsuits previously cost over $3 million). I'm sure he'll state something in his eloquent way about "more studies need to be done" or "we had our chance, but the supreme court denied hearing it", or something basic like "it's not in the state's best interest with no state regulation."

I sure hope I'm wrong, though.

[Canarsie]

Originally Posted by biggestal99

1. What if they are there already playing the ponies. Sports bettors are horse bettors.

2. Will Hill is running the show at Monmouth, How do they operate successfully in the UK?

3. Robbed at after betting sports and collecting at Monmouth? oh sure nobody ever hits big playing the ponies there I guess. I have had 5 figure hits at Monmouth, I wasn't concerned about getting robbed.

4. Will Hill runs the show. are US wiseguys any different than UK wiseguys.

5. See 4.

Allan


Allan

Sports bettors are horse bettors? Please give the percentage because if its 25% or higher you should be made commissioner of sports wagering. I will even nominate you.

Where are all the young guys wagering on sports playing the horses? I wear glasses and still don't see them.


How many people go to the track from September to June? All there is to wager on in summer is baseball most gamblers (excluding the pros) take a break from that

Most people who make a nice hit at the track leaves with a check after mandatory takeout. I don't have a clue what a sports gambler would do in regards to cashing but the possibility remains.

Since you make a big deal out of Will Hill how are they doing in the NJ poker market? Lets also throw Betfair into that equation.

A wiseguy or his employee from any country isn't going to stand for waiting at a track to wager on events. Lines can fluctuate quickly and most just want to hit the middle. Sometimes even sixty seconds can dissuade one from making a bet because the line jumped that fast. You need to watch or rewatch

Sports Betting: Billy Walters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6FAUQ6SFKM

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by Canarsie

Sports bettors are horse bettors? Please give the percentage because if its 25% or higher you should be made commissioner of sports wagering. I will even nominate you.

Where are all the young guys wagering on sports playing the horses? I wear glasses and still don't see them.


How many people go to the track from September to June? All there is to wager on in summer is baseball most gamblers (excluding the pros) take a break from that

Most people who make a nice hit at the track leaves with a check after mandatory takeout. I don't have a clue what a sports gambler would do in regards to cashing but the possibility remains.

Since you make a big deal out of Will Hill how are they doing in the NJ poker market? Lets also throw Betfair into that equation.

A wiseguy or his employee from any country isn't going to stand for waiting at a track to wager on events. Lines can fluctuate quickly and most just want to hit the middle. Sometimes even sixty seconds can dissuade one from making a bet because the line jumped that fast. You need to watch or rewatch

Sports Betting: Billy Walters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6FAUQ6SFKM

I come into contact with race and sports bettors at Tahoe books around 4 days a week.
One of the books (the worst one) is William Hill.

I know for a fact that over 90% of the sports bettors (average age 30) want nothing to do with the race simulcasts going on around them. The race bettors (average age close to 60) are the only ones betting horses,
apart from the rare bird who bets both for the hell of it.

Getting back to William Hill, I bet that they are regretting getting into this market so early. The US version of Will Hill (in Nevada at least) has little resemblance to the UK model. They are an offshoot of Cal Neva/Lucky's with many of the same execs taking down lucrative salaries for mediocre results.

Yes, William Hill is now established in the Nevada market, and is looking to expand here should they get the chance.
This has come about, however, at a pretty high cost.
Costs remain constant, or rise, as they wait for an ease in sports betting opposition.
They may be waiting a long time.

[Canarsie]

Originally Posted by bks

I think this analysis is pretty flawed, mostly because you;re underestimating the great draw of sports betting and the population density in and around NJ.

You have somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 million people within 2 hrs drive of AC who gamble on sports in some fashion. For every 1% of them come to AC or a sports betting parlor each year and stay for just a single evening, that's tens of millions of dollars in taxable non-gambling revenues right off the bat (rooms, meals, shows, etc).

Second, having a bookie need not be an exclusive relationship. As with marijuana, there is a huge conformist segment of the population that will only indulge in sports betting in a regular fashion if it is given the stamp of legitimacy. They'd welcome a good reason to come to AC for a night in the fall/winter.

Casual-to-serious bettors from the east coast plan trips to Vegas for the Super Bowl and for the NCAA tournament every year because of legalized sports betting. Give that to NJ Casinos, and you are talking about full hotels for three or four extra weekends during the winter/spring, not to mention the added occupancy from Thanksgiving, the NFL playoffs, bowl season, etc.

With sports betting spicing up the offerings, I imagine the Breeders Cup weekend will also be packed, as will the Derby and other Triple Crown Saturdays.

As for the "average" football weekend in the fall, there are plenty of people within a 30-minute radius who will come to the casino/racetrack instead of a sports bar, simply to watch every out of town game for free without pressure to eat/drink. While they're there, they'll bet a little.

In 2012, $3.45 billion was legally wagered in Nevada’s sports books. If NJ does 25% of that, you're talking about more than $1B in add'l renevue for the state once peripherals are added in. That's a very big deal.

Your entitled to your opinion I respect your point of view while being on the complete opposite side of the fence.

I have posted this before but here it goes again. My friend and I went to the Meadowlands (just simulcasting) one afternoon and all the computers were down on and off site. There was easily well over 1000 people there just staring at screens without being able to place a wager on track. The amount of screaming and yelling was equal to the previous Saturday's for almost any track being televised. Surely they weren't wagering monopoly money to get so excited.

Did they have to ante up after losing? Were they being watched specifically by CCTV wagering? The only inconvenience was the pools were lower because most people were doing what John Q. Public did which was to make a phone call.

Please show me a stat showing how many people fly to Las Vegas exclusively just for the Super Bowl or March Madness? Inquiring minds want to know.

So sports wagering in going to cure all of this?

4 more Atlantic City casinos drop simulcasting – Borgata is last one standing - See more at: http://blog.northjersey.com/meadowla....UV4Jkz1C.dpuf

Again please show me a few economic forecasts that predict that this will happen.



With sports betting spicing up the offerings, I imagine the Breeders Cup weekend will also be packed, as will the Derby and other Triple Crown Saturdays.

With sports wagering do you imagine or have a work-up that this will actually happen?

[Robert Goren]

The track don't think sports bettors will bet horse racing. They want the money the sports bettor will provide just like they want the money the slots. With the kind of money that sports betting provides, the horse racing betting side of the business will get an even colder shoulder from the racinos.

[Canarsie]

Originally Posted by Redboard

I don’t know why you think that casinos must be built in mister Rodgers neighborhoods to be successful. Many people said the same thing when the idea first surfaced of putting casinos in Atlantic City back in the 70s – that it would never work in such a bad neighborhood - by end of the 1980s it was the most popular tourist destination in the United States and a cash cow for the garden state.
The two casinos in/near Philadelphia - Chester, PA(Harrah’s), and in a Philadelphia neighborhood call Fishtown (Sugarhouse Casino), are in two crime-ridden areas and yet they are printing money ; the mayor of Philadelphia, wants to build another one. I’m not a businessman, but I do understand the principle of “location, location, location.” It wasn’t that long ago that if someone wanted to legally play a game of poker or blackjack with other people, one had to travel a long way to do that. No so today and the closer a casino is to those “customers” , the better IMO.
As far as the $82 million investment in the 76ers facility, we don’t know if it’s a disgrace yet, do we? It’s a gamble that could pay off- you or I have no way of knowing at this time. It’s certainly a better gamble than another casino in AC, if I were an odds maker.


As far as walking across the Ben Franklin Bridge, I have done that many times, most recently with a hiking group I belong to called “Hiking Around Philly Meetup” on 6/22/14. That’s me in the orange shirt and white hat.

http://www.meetup.com/HikingAroundPh...bumId=22738732

I don't think casinos need to be built in exclusive areas really don't recall writing that. Stating that Middlesex has a higher population was for arguments sake most towns and their resident would block it in a heartbeat. Our differences of opinion started with you blasting Christie who really can't do much in the way of government because of the way the chambers are composed.

You yourself said the mayor of Philly wants to build another casino. Nowhere does it say its a done deal. Maybe the mayor and Christie have the same problem I'm not familiar with Philly politics. So if his attempt fails I guess you will also include him (the Philly mayor) as an idiot?

Regarding the 76ers it is true that we won't know the outcome for many years . So how come you are not calling Christie a stinking genius or some other forms of praise for building something that benefits YOU?

Nice pics of the bridge and a great job. It reminds me of doing that on bicycle on the Brooklyn bridge. But I meant by yourself not with an armed brigade.

[Canarsie]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

There's NOT a single soul who wouldn't drive 15 mins on a Saturday to bet the entire NFL card and bet some college action while they are there.

You like doing this sort of stuff why don't you start a poll and ask. It would be interesting to see how the responses were with or without racing on the table.

My hunch is without racing the number would be at least 80% of the gamblers not going. Did you ever go to an OTB and see the crowd? I certainly wouldn't want to go there to enjoy some games. A decent sports bar is much preferred for the atmosphere and food.

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by mgoldie1

Allan, I can't imagine what other language he could use in a conditional veto. I don't think the state can state any violations, fines, etc. for anything "shady." They can't add language that keeps "non authorized" entities from being involved at the tracks. I don't think they can state anything about monies allocated to a GA fund.

In my opinion, I think it's an all or nothing for Christie. My gut feeling is he vetoes it with the fear of getting involved with more lawsuits and costing taxpayers more money (the lawsuits previously cost over $3 million). I'm sure he'll state something in his eloquent way about "more studies need to be done" or "we had our chance, but the supreme court denied hearing it", or something basic like "it's not in the state's best interest with no state regulation."

I sure hope I'm wrong, though.

Well I am pretty sure that once the sports wagering laws are off the books jersey can't be sued by the leagues or the united states after all jersey was basically given the green light to contour its sports betting laws any which way they want to by the court.

That leaves suing the casinos and race tracks, not sure how they get jersey to revoke their repeal of its own sports betting laws or get the feds involved, the court clearly stated that jersey could deregulate and get out of the picture. And its not in violation of federal law.

Allan