Free will is an illusion

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

What if you are wrong about your core beliefs?

<< spoken to no one in particular >>

If it wasn't spoken to anyone in particular, then why wasn't your question framed as thus: "What if we're all wrong about our core beliefs?" Could it be that at the end of the day, you believe you're right and everyone else is wrong?

Show me from Scripture where I am wrong. But if you can't, then I would suggest that the question you should be asking is, "What if I'm wrong about my core beliefs?"

We all subscribe to some authority in life, without exception. I have chosen, by God's saving grace to believe that the Word of God is my one and only and final and infallible authority on life, and all that this entails. After all, didn't the Messiah himself teach:

"Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from God's mouth" (Mat 4:4)?

What is your one and only and final authority?

Look at Light's final authority: NDE's. In his last post, he wasted no time in telling me that I'm wrong (i.e. translate: scripture is wrong) because I (scripture) contradict all his many subjective NDE stories. (Of course, he conveniently omits all the NDE horror stories that actually affirm scripture!) Therefore, because he has freely chosen to omit these highly inconvenient accounts, he is at the very least a liar by omission.

[Dave Schwartz]

If it wasn't spoken to anyone in particular, then why wasn't your question framed as thus: "What if we're all wrong about our core beliefs?" Could it be that at the end of the day, you believe you're right and everyone else is wrong?

Show me from Scripture where I am wrong. But if you can't, then I would suggest that the question you should be asking is, "What if I'm wrong about my core beliefs?"

It was a literal question.
There was no need for subtext.

Nobody here needs either one of us to think for them.

Biblical knowledge does not equal spiritual maturity.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

It was a literal question.
There was no need for subtext.

Nobody here needs either one of us to think for them.

Is that what you think Jesus' Great Commission was all about? He commanded his disciples to go out into the world to think for everyone?

Biblical knowledge does not equal spiritual maturity.

This is true. But on the other hand, the Living Word of God is indispensable for eternal life:

John 6:68
68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
NIV

And Peter's confession was in response to:

John 6:63-64
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe."
NIV


To whom do you go for life eternal? Who is your final authority?

And it's also written:

Mark 8:38
38 "If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."
NIV

At least I'm not ashamed of Christ and his words. What about you?

No one can be born again apart from the ministry of God's Word:

1 Peter 1:23-25
23 For you have been born again , not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

"All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord stands forever."

And this is the word that was preached to you.
NIV

I may indeed be the most immature among the children of God, but like a newborn babe, I crave for his Word, thanks be to God! For what do you crave?

1 Peter 2:2-3
2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk , so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.
NIV

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Show me from Scripture where I am wrong. But if you can't, then I would suggest that the question you should be asking is, "What if I'm wrong about my core beliefs?"

You act as if the Jewish/Christian scriptures are the only ones out there...and you keep using them as proof that you "can't be wrong". You do realize that there is other "Scripture" out there which claims 'Divine Inspiration', do you not? According to the Hindu and the Egyptian scriptures...you are wrong. Unless, of course, you can prove that your scriptures are "right"... and the other ones are "wrong".

[Dave Schwartz]

Is that what you think Jesus' Great Commission was all about? He commanded his disciples to go out into the world to think for everyone?

What I think is that your attitude of condemnation is NOT part of the Great Commission.

I have two questions for you and then I will attempt to be finished with this episode of --- Boxcar's version of what God wants.
____________________
1. Your approach to "serving God's cause" seems to be to continually PREACH at everyone by regurgitating scripture condemning them for being so imperfect.

(It would seem that your approach to this is precisely that: It is YOUR APPROACH - not God's.)

But I will ask anyway: How is that going?
Are the people flocking to you to be taught?
Is it working?


2. As I have asked you many times before, "Where is the love?"

[Cuffdaddy]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

Biblical knowledge does not equal spiritual maturity.

If I may, the above is what it is all about. The spritual relationship between Jesus Christ and the individual. Sure, there is a place for those who can quote every scripture and prefer to battle everything even with true intentions. That never grasped me personally or drew me closer.

It has to be a simple message so all can understand. I am a stubborn, hard headed mule with a chip on my shoulder that has served me both positively (so I say) and negatively my entire life. Submission is required to actually be led by Jesus, there were times when I fully submitted and many more times when my way intervened.

This simple verse has always stuck with me and can be proven:

Ephesians 6:12, KJV: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."


Many documented cases of the spiritual world, from demonic possessions and exorcisms, ghost sightings, the occult (psychics, mediums, Ouija board) that can know and predict things but come from a evil entity, the coming discovery of alien life forms, free masonry, etc. I can go on and on. It is all a deception.

Regarding documented demon possessions and exorcisms, the evil entity will only recognize and respond to commands that begin with "In the name of Jesus Christ and the holy spirit" . Zero fear or submission to any other religious figurehead.

Spritual gifts like a prayer language come from from that realm . Prayer is powerful and what I may think is right for me can and often is the opposite of where Jesus Christ
leads.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You act as if the Jewish/Christian scriptures are the only ones out there...and you keep using them as proof that you "can't be wrong". You do realize that there is other "Scripture" out there which claims 'Divine Inspiration', do you not? According to the Hindu and the Egyptian scriptures...you are wrong. Unless, of course, you can prove that your scriptures are "right"... and the other ones are "wrong".

While we're at it, who's to say if any of the Scriptures are the Word of God and not the word of "Fred?"

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

What I think is that your attitude of condemnation is NOT part of the Great Commission.

I have two questions for you and then I will attempt to be finished with this episode of --- Boxcar's version of what God wants.
____________________
1. Your approach to "serving God's cause" seems to be to continually PREACH at everyone by regurgitating scripture condemning them for being so imperfect.

(It would seem that your approach to this is precisely that: It is YOUR APPROACH - not God's.)

But I will ask anyway: How is that going?
Are the people flocking to you to be taught?
Is it working?


2. As I have asked you many times before, "Where is the love?"

I have not condemned anyone; for there is no reason for me or any Christian to condemn any unbeliever. All unbelievers stand condemned already, whether they know this or not, or accept it or not. Scripture is very clear on this truth:

John 3:18
18 Whoever believes (presently) in him is not condemned , but whoever does not believe stands (presently) condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
NIV

So...it is not me who condemns because that is way above my pay grade -- but it's God who condemns! All we evangelical Christians do is present the Gospel message. It's very clear to me that your real issue is not with me per se, but with Jesus' Gospel message of the Kingdom! The only reason you're angry or displeased with me is because you want me to "preach" a softer, gentler, kinder, non-offensive, more politically-correct Gospel. But God forbid I should do such an evil thing and fall under God's curse for sharing a false Gospel (Gal 1:6-9)!

Don't you know that Jesus is the Rock of Offense to all unbelievers (1Pet 2:8)?

Are you aware that Jesus was always true to his Father's message. It never concerned him one whit if his message of truth offended anyone!

Matt 15:12-14
12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"

13 He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
NIV

Truth is always offensive to a world filled with liars! Why do you find the Gospel of Christ to be offensive?

Finally, while I desire that all who hear my words would repent of their sins and come to believe the gospel, this is not my primary concern. Not by a long shot! My primary concern is that I emulate Christ who had the title Faithful and True Witness (Rev 3:14). My ultimate desire, therefore, is to be just that kind of witness to the Word of God. My real concern is to handle the Word of God accurately (2Tim 2:15). After all, in the work of evangelism, one man plants, another waters but it is always God that gives the increase; therefore, neither he who plants or waters is anything, but God who gives that increase (1Cor 3:7).

[porchy44]

I suppose Thomas Merton would of simply said.. (after reading through many of these replies)

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him".

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Tom

While we're at it, who's to say if any of the Scriptures are the Word of God and not the word of "Fred?"

I believe half of what I see...and none of what I read or hear.

[porchy44]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I believe half of what I see...and none of what I read or hear.

The DRF is not for you then !

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by porchy44

The DRF is not for you then !

How can I believe the DRF, when the horses keep running as if their past performances are forgeries?

[Dave Schwartz]

Finally, while I desire that all who hear my words would repent of their sins

This really is the very core of the problem.

If God were a company, you, Boxcar, would be in charge of SALES PREVENTION.

See, nobody really cares what you or I have to say.

Do you know why that is?
Because we are poor substitutes for whatever God might have to say.

The fact that you can do research on the web and craft what you find into a smokescreen of answers to questions not asked, does not make those words "from God."

At the end of all of it, what matters is the COMMUNICATION between God & the individual person.

Your words & actions do not move that cause forward.

On the other hand, if Jesus himself showed up here and spoke, I imagine that even the atheists would at least listen.

I ask once again - where is the love?


(Really trying to resist here. Maybe this can be my last response.)
(Reasonably certain that would please at least a few people.)

[Dave Schwartz]

Originally Posted by porchy44

I suppose Thomas Merton would of simply said.. (after reading through many of these replies)

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him".

And that is why I speaketh too much, too often.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

This really is the very core of the problem.

If God were a company, you, Boxcar, would be in charge of SALES PREVENTION.

See, nobody really cares what you or I have to say.

Do you know why that is?
Because we are poor substitutes for whatever God might have to say.

The fact that you can do research on the web and craft what you find into a smokescreen of answers to questions not asked, does not make those words "from God."

At the end of all of it, what matters is the COMMUNICATION between God & the individual person.

Your words & actions do not move that cause forward.

On the other hand, if Jesus himself showed up here and spoke, I imagine that even the atheists would at least listen.

I ask once again - where is the love?


(Really trying to resist here. Maybe this can be my last response.)
(Reasonably certain that would please at least a few people.)

So...Jesus' Great Commission to his disciples to go out into the world to make disciples of all nations can be reduced to nothing less than a miserable confidence game at worst or at minimum an ill-conceived sales pitch?

Have you ever wondered why Jesus, after he rose from the dead, revealed himself himself only to his Father's elect? I can certainly come up with a few reasons from scripture -- but here's one from the Messiah's own mouth:

Luke 16:19-31
19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30 "'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
NIV

You would do very well to take this passage to heart! I would ask you why Jesus framed the last verse in his story the way he did, but I strongly suspect you wouldn't have the first clue.

Finally, you persist in asking me where is my love in sharing the gospel? Have you forgotten what the greatest commandment is? And have you never read:

John 14:15
15 "If you love me , you will obey what I command.?
NIV

And don't you recall how Peter and John responded to the Sanhedrin who also had no love for the Message of Life?

Acts 5:27-29
27Having brought the apostles, they made them appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28 "We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name," he said. "Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man's blood."

29 Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men!
NIV

God called me into his kingdom to be HIS servant -- to be loyal and faithful to Him. He did not call me to be a pleaser of men. I consider myself to be in good company of Peter and the other apostles who expressed their love for God by obedience to their Lord and their love for lost mankind by preaching the Messiah's Gospel of Salvation.