Ban On Lasix

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by cj

Don't we see it every year in Dubai? Don't recall a single bleeding incident used as a reason for a poor performance.

Yeah. I mean, I would assume if there was a horse who had a debilitating bleeding problem where Lasix was mandatory, they probably just wouldn't ship to Dubai at all. (It's possible Game on Dude bled over there- I know Baffert never went back with him.)

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Yeah. I mean, I would assume if there was a horse who had a debilitating bleeding problem where Lasix was mandatory, they probably just wouldn't ship to Dubai at all. (It's possible Game on Dude bled over there- I know Baffert never went back with him.)

I don't think connections are always too eager to let people know a horse is a bleeder. It could impact the value of the horse and offspring.

I remember debates about Orb and how good he actually was after he got such a good setup in his Derby. He disappointed in a few races after that (in his last race he was terrible). The anti-Orb folks used that to support their position that he was always a mediocre horse. But I heard a rumor that he bled a bit through lasix in a couple of those disappointing races, was being treated for it at some facility, and it was never made public. If that's true (don't know that it is), then sure, he got a great setup in the Derby. But we also didn't get a chance to see him develop or perform at his best because he had a problem, no one really knew about it, and he was quickly retired.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I don't think connections are always too eager to let people know a horse is a bleeder. It could impact the value of the horse and offspring.

I remember debates about Orb and how good he actually was after he got such a good setup in his Derby. He disappointed in a few races after that (in his last race he was terrible). The anti-Orb folks used that to support their position that he was always a mediocre horse. But I heard a rumor that he bled a bit through lasix in a couple of those disappointing races, was being treated for it at some facility, and it was never made public. If that's true (don't know that it is), then sure, he got a great setup in the Derby. But we also didn't get a chance to see him develop or perform at his best because he had a problem, no one really knew about it, and he was quickly retired.

That strikes me as a reasonable theory, especially since Orb had been pretty impressive in his prep races (he was the post time favorite at Churchill).

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

That strikes me as a reasonable theory, especially since Orb had been pretty impressive in his prep races (he was the post time favorite at Churchill).

I played him in the Derby. I thought he was good in Florida even though he got one good setup down there also. He got a great setup in the Derby, but IMO, good horses sometimes get great setups. That doesn't mean they aren't still good horses. So I was more in the camp of thinking he was a good horse that just kind of went bad at the end. Then I heard that rumor. Not sure how reliable it was, but it made sense to me too given how poorly he eventually went out in his late race.

[Parson]

something to remember, a horse may or may not bleed every time. sometimes the heat and humidity can play a factor. so can stress and who knows what else.

[JohnGalt1]

How many here have been on Lasix?

You don't really know the effects unless you've been taking it.

On February 16, 2018 I broke my right humorous bone. They put a plate with seven screws holding my bone in place.

I developed excessive swelling in my feet and hands. Before the surgery I weighed 172-175 for the past dozen years. The excess fluid pushed my weight to 186. I'm 5' 7"and 65 years old.

I was put on Salix injections. None after 6 PM since I peed like a horse.

I was on the injections for about a week, the off and the Lasix pills and then Torsemide pills, another diuretic.

I weigh myself every morning to monitor any sudden weight gains. This morning I weighed 151.4 lbs.

Yes, the fluid is under control, and some of the weight loss is fluid, but I have also lost muscle. My rump and upper thighs look like bad liposuction because most of the weight loss is from those muscles. I now know why major league pitchers get their power from.

My health situation is not 100% due to using diuretics.

I don't know how much my situation in comparable to Lasix in 1200 lb. horses, but if I was a trainer I'd think awful hard before giving it to a horse.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by JohnGalt1

How many here have been on Lasix?

You don't really know the effects unless you've been taking it.

On February 16, 2018 I broke my right humorous bone. They put a plate with seven screws holding my bone in place.

I developed excessive swelling in my feet and hands. Before the surgery I weighed 172-175 for the past dozen years. The excess fluid pushed my weight to 186. I'm 5' 7"and 65 years old.

I was put on Salix injections. None after 6 PM since I peed like a horse.

I was on the injections for about a week, the off and the Lasix pills and then Torsemide pills, another diuretic.

I weigh myself every morning to monitor any sudden weight gains. This morning I weighed 151.4 lbs.

Yes, the fluid is under control, and some of the weight loss is fluid, but I have also lost muscle. My rump and upper thighs look like bad liposuction because most of the weight loss is from those muscles. I now know why major league pitchers get their power from.

My health situation is not 100% due to using diuretics.

I don't know how much my situation in comparable to Lasix in 1200 lb. horses, but if I was a trainer I'd think awful hard before giving it to a horse.

What you don't realize is that if you had gone out and ran 6 1/2 furlongs, you would have gone faster.

[Racetrack Playa]

Travis Tygart (USADA) & Ed Martin (Racing Commissioners International) each presents his side of the proposed USADA involvement in thoroughbred racing drug testing.
martins spiel @ 21:35" the industry needs to work with those who police it", greasy

YouTube

I think if Tygart had his way we would see some big changes real fast. Imagine a buuuuuunch of HOmFers being kicked out , a draining of the swamp so to speak, 38 different jurisdictions of muckin corruptin . I don't know.
How do you get into the HALL before you retire anyway?Who does that.
now I'll have another BEER peace

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Don't ever question the ethics of Larry Bramlage.

You have no evidence to do so, and no right to do so.

lulz

Really?

DON'T EVER QUESTION...LMFAO

Who are you kidding? NO RIGHT TO DO SO...stop it...you're killing me dude...

YouTube

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Dilan, you need to just stop. Or give us your real name so I can go disparage your reputation publicly with zero reason, proof, or evidence for doing so.

Actually, it's YOU who needs to stop. You're WAY OVER THE TOP at this point...so take this as your last warning.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Actually, it's YOU who needs to stop. You're WAY OVER THE TOP at this point...so take this as your last warning.

I’m quaking in my boots.

You’re the biggest offender here, posting insults of readers and not even trying to give the appearance of being a fair moderator.

[dilanesp]

The funny thing is, I don't conceal my real name at all here. It's easy to figure out.

(And by the way, I wouldn't post anything defamatory. Never. I have opinions, including opinions about what some folks can and can't say given their positions. I form these opinions based on the fact that I am a lawyer and I know there are things I can and can't say about various things given my position. But I don't defame people.)

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

The funny thing is, I don't conceal my real name at all here. It's easy to figure out.

(And by the way, I wouldn't post anything defamatory. Never. I have opinions, including opinions about what some folks can and can't say given their positions. I form these opinions based on the fact that I am a lawyer and I know there are things I can and can't say about various things given my position. But I don't defame people.)

Your opinion is wrong. Bramlage has been outspoken on Lasix and bisphosphonates and other drugs and practices. Just because you are a super skeptic who thinks all trainers are liars and cheats and all vets are liars doesn’t make it true. No one in the world questions Bramlage’s integrity and it’s uncalled for you to do so.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Your opinion is wrong. Bramlage has been outspoken on Lasix and bisphosphonates and other drugs and practices. Just because you are a super skeptic who thinks all trainers are liars and cheats and all vets are liars doesn’t make it true. No one in the world questions Bramlage’s integrity and it’s uncalled for you to do so.

I don't think "all trainers are liars and cheats and all vets are liars".

I do think that the economic structure of the industry prevents trainers and vets from being completely forthcoming about doping.

And by the way, this isn't something limited to horse racing. For instance, I don't think baseball players are a bunch of liars. But the economic structure of the sport of baseball caused many players to be less than completely forthcoming about steroids.

I will say this- I think most or all of the most successful trainers in our sport dope. I think they have to. Indeed, that's how this has worked in other sports. Once word got around that baseball players or sprinters were taking steroids, basically everyone had to take them, because otherwise you would end up hitting 25 home runs while everyone else hit 50 or running 10.00 when everyone else was running 9.90.

I know less about cycling but it appears the same thing happened there in the 1990's.

This isn't a comment about people's honesty. It's about the economic incentives of a sport that permits doping. Our sport permits doping. And doping provides the economic livelihood for the trainers and vets that work in it.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

I don't think "all trainers are liars and cheats and all vets are liars".

I do think that the economic structure of the industry prevents trainers and vets from being completely forthcoming about doping.

And by the way, this isn't something limited to horse racing. For instance, I don't think baseball players are a bunch of liars. But the economic structure of the sport of baseball caused many players to be less than completely forthcoming about steroids.

I will say this- I think most or all of the most successful trainers in our sport dope. I think they have to. Indeed, that's how this has worked in other sports. Once word got around that baseball players or sprinters were taking steroids, basically everyone had to take them, because otherwise you would end up hitting 25 home runs while everyone else hit 50 or running 10.00 when everyone else was running 9.90.

I know less about cycling but it appears the same thing happened there in the 1990's.

This isn't a comment about people's honesty. It's about the economic incentives of a sport that permits doping. Our sport permits doping. And doping provides the economic livelihood for the trainers and vets that work in it.

It IS about honesty, and there are plenty of honest trainers out there who don't cheat. Again, just because you think it's so doesn't make it so.

Back to Bramlage, he said that Lasix is a performance enhancer but that it also protects the horses' lungs and is the best treatment for EIPH and he'd allow it if the call is to do what's best for the horses. What exactly do you disagree with about this opinion that makes you call into question the ethics of Bramlage?