The reason there are super trainers

[InsideTheRaces.com]

I don't post much but I just got done reading the Karl Broberg thread and thought I would reply to it but thought it was better to start a new thread.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...&page=15&pp=15

I'll try to keep it concise and to the point with a few comparisons to show/prove my point.

Most of you are handicappers and have never seen the backside of a track. Bottom line, 80% of horse trainers have no business being in business period.
I'm sure all of you have been to the track or a OTB and have watched horseplayers placing wagers with info from the track program or no program at all. I'm sure all of you have thought wow these are the clowns I'm betting against.
The backside of the track is no different from what you see at the windows of the track or OTB.
For the most part the trainers love the horses and love the game just like the idiot playing numbers in the OTB. They are there everyday doing what they do.

Super handicapper
Has better data, follows trainer and jockey stats, watches replays, is prepared before placing bets, and only bets when they think they have an advantage.
Handicapper
Shows up and maybe buys a track program, no plan, scrambles to place bets based on little or no information.

Lets say a trainer claims a horse here's what might happen

Super Trainer
Pulls the shoes off the horse and soaks feet for a hour or two each day.
Gets the horse's teeth done.
Chiropractic work done.
Gets new shoes for the horse after a couple weeks of no shoes
Legal medication to reduce swelling or pain.
*Proper hay and feed (very few trainers test their hay for nutritional value)
Proper exercise
Round pen time so the horse can really roll and stretch the muscles.

Trainer
Put them in the barn.
Put them on the barns regular schedule.
The regular schedule for most trainers is.
Feed the horse a diet that has not been tested for nutritional value.
Maybe get the horse out of the stall in the morning because you can't or don't want to pay for exercise riders.
I could go on but I won't

Bottom line if you go to the backside in the morning (6 am) you can see who runs a professional operation and who doesn't.

The other aspect of the super trainer is they have owners that don't care if the horse gets claimed. If the owner won't run where the super trainer wants it to run they have about 24 hrs to get their horse out of his barn.
The regular trainer just wants the day money and doesn't want to lose the horse. Reason being he makes money off the day money because he's skimping on care. The super trainer spends the day money on the horse and only makes money when the horse wins.

When you look at how the super trainer takes care of the horse and how they place the horses in races it's not very far fetched how they can improve horse and win more than a regular trainer.
Are some cheating? Maybe?

I could go on forever about the difference between a super trainer and a trainer.

It's like any business, 20% make 80% of the money.

I'm ready for the fallout bring it on!

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by InsideTheRaces.com

I don't post much but I just got done reading the Karl Broberg thread and thought I would reply to it but thought it was better to start a new thread.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...&page=15&pp=15

I'll try to keep it concise and to the point with a few comparisons to show/prove my point.

Most of you are handicappers and have never seen the backside of a track. Bottom line, 80% of horse trainers have no business being in business period.
I'm sure all of you have been to the track or a OTB and have watched horseplayers placing wagers with info from the track program or no program at all. I'm sure all of you have thought wow these are the clowns I'm betting against.
The backside of the track is no different from what you see at the windows of the track or OTB.
For the most part the trainers love the horses and love the game just like the idiot playing numbers in the OTB. They are there everyday doing what they do.

Super handicapper
Has better data, follows trainer and jockey stats, watches replays, is prepared before placing bets, and only bets when they think they have an advantage.
Handicapper
Shows up and maybe buys a track program, no plan, scrambles to place bets based on little or no information.

Lets say a trainer claims a horse here's what might happen

Super Trainer
Pulls the shoes off the horse and soaks feet for a hour or two each day.
Gets the horse's teeth done.
Chiropractic work done.
Gets new shoes for the horse after a couple weeks of no shoes
Legal medication to reduce swelling or pain.
*Proper hay and feed (very few trainers test their hay for nutritional value)
Proper exercise
Round pen time so the horse can really roll and stretch the muscles.

Trainer
Put them in the barn.
Put them on the barns regular schedule.
The regular schedule for most trainers is.
Feed the horse a diet that has not been tested for nutritional value.
Maybe get the horse out of the stall in the morning because you can't or don't want to pay for exercise riders.
I could go on but I won't

Bottom line if you go to the backside in the morning (6 am) you can see who runs a professional operation and who doesn't.

The other aspect of the super trainer is they have owners that don't care if the horse gets claimed. If the owner won't run where the super trainer wants it to run they have about 24 hrs to get their horse out of his barn.
The regular trainer just wants the day money and doesn't want to lose the horse. Reason being he makes money off the day money because he's skimping on care. The super trainer spends the day money on the horse and only makes money when the horse wins.

When you look at how the super trainer takes care of the horse and how they place the horses in races it's not very far fetched how they can improve horse and win more than a regular trainer.
Are some cheating? Maybe?

I could go on forever about the difference between a super trainer and a trainer.

It's like any business, 20% make 80% of the money.

I'm ready for the fallout bring it on!

I don't get the point, are you suggesting super trainers aren't cheats and are just working harder than everyone else? Since 95 pct or higher of all the trainers with licenses are NOT super trainers, are you saying that 95 pct of trainers aren't doing feet, teeth, etc so when a supertrainer gets hold of a horse he's (or she) is doing things 95 pct of the training population hasn't thought of?

[InsideTheRaces.com]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

I don't get the point, are you suggesting super trainers aren't cheats and are just working harder than everyone else? Since 95 pct or higher of all the trainers with licenses are NOT super trainers, are you saying that 95 pct of trainers aren't doing feet, teeth, etc so when a supertrainer gets hold of a horse he's (or she) is doing things 95 pct of the training population hasn't thought of?

That's right super trainers are not cheats for the most part.

Stillriledup have you been to the backside from 5 am - 11 am to see what happens?

From all your postings I assume you play this game for a living, am I correct?

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by InsideTheRaces.com

That's right super trainers are not cheats for the most part.

Stillriledup have you been to the backside from 5 am - 11 am to see what happens?

From all your postings I assume you play this game for a living, am I correct?

I know what goes on in this game from the inside, lets just say that. I've heard a few roosters in my day As far as your other question, I'm going to take the 5th on that one.

So if super trainers are not cheats "for the most part" that means you think some are cheats, right? Ill ask this, how can I determine which super trainers are honest and which ones are not? Any clues I should look for?

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by InsideTheRaces.com
From all your postings I assume you play this game for a living, am I correct?

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

As far as your other question, I'm going to take the 5th on that one.

You give us your opinions on everything under the sun, to the point of absurdity, but you can't admit that you don't play the horses for a living? Why don't you also add, that you don't bet sports, poker or gamble for a living?......No stones, SRU, No stones whatsoever.

[InsideTheRaces.com]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

I know what goes on in this game from the inside, lets just say that. I've heard a few roosters in my day As far as your other question, I'm going to take the 5th on that one.

So if super trainers are not cheats "for the most part" that means you think some are cheats, right? Ill ask this, how can I determine which super trainers are honest and which ones are not? Any clues I should look for?

What about the guy at the OTB betting races from the OTB program.
The same kind of guy is in the barn on the backside training horses.
Lets put it this way. The losers on the backside are cheating more than the super trainers are and they're wondering why they're not winning.
Obviously you've never been to the backside. If you're a serious handicapper you need to go see for yourself. It's like the carnival/circus that comes to town for a few weeks or months. Have you ever done any circus work?

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

You give us your opinions on everything under the sun, to the point of absurdity, but you can't admit that you don't play the horses for a living? Why don't you also add, that you don't bet sports, poker or gamble for a living?......No stones, SRU, No stones whatsoever.

I haven't gotten into much personal stuff here, ill keep it that way for now, Sorry RR.

[lamboguy]

today supertrainers control condition books all over the place. when you look at most race tracks that have 30 or more trainers that fill entries on a daily basis you will find that 7 or 8 trainers have over half of the horses that run on that track. within the last 10 years rules have been forced to change at most tracks in order to accommodate the horses that need to run. often times we now see races where the same trainer and owner's have multiple entries in the same race without them being coupled. this has only accomplished race tracks putting out a watered down product. it has also chased business away from the race track.

if it was up to me, i would only allow 40 trainer licenses that would be reviewed year to year.. if a trainer is unable to maintain a 10% winning rate he would not get a license for the next year. those trainers would not be allowed a roster of more than 25 horses and the owners not be allowed to own more than 2 horses. reshape the game this way and i am sure you will get rid of the supertrainers.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by InsideTheRaces.com

What about the guy at the OTB betting races from the OTB program.
The same kind of guy is in the barn on the backside training horses.
Lets put it this way. The losers on the backside are cheating more than the super trainers are and they're wondering why they're not winning.
Obviously you've never been to the backside. If you're a serious handicapper you need to go see for yourself. It's like the carnival/circus that comes to town for a few weeks or months. Have you ever done any circus work?

I've played a circus clown on occasion here at PA, but no, I've never done any serious circus stuff.

[InsideTheRaces.com]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

today supertrainers control condition books all over the place. when you look at most race tracks that have 30 or more trainers that fill entries on a daily basis you will find that 7 or 8 trainers have over half of the horses that run on that track. within the last 10 years rules have been forced to change at most tracks in order to accommodate the horses that need to run. often times we now see races where the same trainer and owner's have multiple entries in the same race without them being coupled. this has only accomplished race tracks putting out a watered down product. it has also chased business away from the race track.

if it was up to me, i would only allow 40 trainer licenses that would be reviewed year to year.. if a trainer is unable to maintain a 10% winning rate he would not get a license for the next year. those trainers would not be allowed a roster of more than 25 horses and the owners not be allowed to own more than 2 horses. reshape the game this way and i am sure you will get rid of the supertrainers.

A 10% win rate is not hard to achieve.
I claimed my first horse in 2004. I knew nothing about caring for race horses. I jumped right in over my head and fired my trainer after a month and claimed a couple more from super trainers over the 3 months. I rented a farm trained them myself with the help of a exercise rider. I entered the horses under a 1% program trainers name. After a year I had 5 horses and was winning at 10%. I could have won more I just didn't want to lose my horses by dropping them down. If I could do what I did with zero background other than handicapping it's not hard to believe that trainers can win at 25-30%

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by InsideTheRaces.com

A 10% win rate is not hard to achieve.
I claimed my first horse in 2004. I knew nothing about caring for race horses. I jumped right in over my head and fired my trainer after a month and claimed a couple more from super trainers over the 3 months. I rented a farm trained them myself with the help of a exercise rider. I entered the horses under a 1% program trainers name. After a year I had 5 horses and was winning at 10%. I could have won more I just didn't want to lose my horses by dropping them down. If I could do what I did with zero background other than handicapping it's not hard to believe that trainers can win at 25-30%

I think it goes a little deeper than wins, it's HOW they win that's important to note. The dramatic overnight improvement is also something to consider.

[InsideTheRaces.com]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

I think it goes a little deeper than wins, it's HOW they win that's important to note. The dramatic overnight improvement is also something to consider.

The dramatic over night improvement is not exactly overnight.
Don't forget these are athletes!
Even if you're a talented athlete do you feel like running if your feet hurt?
What if your back hurts?
How much energy do you have if you're being fed whatever the hay man has dropped off to your barn. Remember the loser trainer has no money and doesn't even know how to test his hay for nutritional value. That trainer just buys hay from the cheapest guy who comes to his barn after he's run out of hay.
Do you think a horse can achieve optimal performance while eating a nutritionally deficient diet?
All these little aspects when combined together add up to some big improvements.
The bottom level/subpar performance trainer is what they are because they don't take a logical and scientific approach to training their athletes.
It really is as simple as that.
Go to the backside and see it. It's there and it's real.
You have your good neighborhood and your bad neighborhood. The guys is the good neighborhood win more races and live in better houses.

[Boulder]

What happens when a Super trainer gets caught.
Then he can't find the winners circle.
They're win percentage drops in the teens.
Is it because he is no longer doing feet, hay, and etc.
I think it just comes down to common sense.

PS.
I have been a owner at Monmouth Park and been in the back plenty of times over the last 25 years.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by InsideTheRaces.com

The dramatic over night improvement is not exactly overnight.
Don't forget these are athletes!
Even if you're a talented athlete do you feel like running if your feet hurt?
What if your back hurts?
How much energy do you have if you're being fed whatever the hay man has dropped off to your barn. Remember the loser trainer has no money and doesn't even know how to test his hay for nutritional value. That trainer just buys hay from the cheapest guy who comes to his barn after he's run out of hay.
Do you think a horse can achieve optimal performance while eating a nutritionally deficient diet?
All these little aspects when combined together add up to some big improvements.
The bottom level/subpar performance trainer is what they are because they don't take a logical and scientific approach to training their athletes.
It really is as simple as that.
Go to the backside and see it. It's there and it's real.
You have your good neighborhood and your bad neighborhood. The guys is the good neighborhood win more races and live in better houses.

Your position is interesting, you seem like an oats and hayer 10 pct guy I'm curious why rush to the defense of the 40 pct trainer ?

[InsideTheRaces.com]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

Your position is interesting, you seem like an oats and hayer 10 pct guy I'm curious why rush to the defense of the 40 pct trainer ?

I'm not rushing to defend these guys. All I'm saying is there are legal things that can be done to improve the horses these guys own or are claiming. Horses can't talk and tell you what's wrong. I guarantee you a NFL player is hurting and in pain after a NFL game. A super trainer will have the vet give the horse a pain killer after the race or a hard workout for several days maybe a week or more. The horses aren't dumb if they know they are going to be hurting and in pain after a race why try hard. It's a pain association game. Do you get what I'm saying. There are more things going on then you know when you are looking at the game from one side. Here's another tidbit you teach the horse with a buzzer when to run. You basically teach it a cue. You start running and give full effort when I touch you here or I'm going to shock you.