1 Turn Races - Outside Post

[cj]

Originally Posted by Ocala Mike

Aqueduct main is opening tomorrow, I think. Not sure how it's been playing in recent years, but "back in the day," races down the chute at 7f and (especially) 1m were not kind to your theory.

Does anyone have stats on this, comparing the "outside" post to the rail post at the Big A main, 7f and 1m?

Main opens today. I'll try to post some stats on this tomorrow.

[rubicon55]

Originally Posted by Ocala Mike

Aqueduct main is opening tomorrow, I think. Not sure how it's been playing in recent years, but "back in the day," races down the chute at 7f and (especially) 1m were not kind to your theory.

Does anyone have stats on this, comparing the "outside" post to the rail post at the Big A main, 7f and 1m?

Hi Mike, I looked at Bris for today so back to Nov-Dec 6.5 F, looks like a slight rail bias favoring early speed in the sprints and at 1 M outside post has a slight edge going to closers for the routes. But CJ's database should be better than what I noted in Bris in the brief time I looked at it.

[raybo]

As was stated earlier, the outside post has the advantage of only having to worry about its left side. The right side is wide open for maneuvering should the horse break "out". All the other post positions have horses or obstacles (the rail, except in races coming out of a chute, where the 1 post has no rail to worry about early) on both sides of them that they can have trouble with.

That being said, the outside post can be both an advantage and a disadvantage, depending on the running style of the horse, or the way the jockey intends to run the horse early, that occupies it, and its related normal break and early speed/velocities. If the horse "must" get the lead early and has a good break and the best early speed, then it is advantaged by that outside post. If the horse always runs at the back of the pack, then it again has the advantage because it can simply move to the rail, behind the other horses. Some horses can even stay wide if the pace isn't too hot and simply wait for the chance to move inside (tactical speed).

On the other hand, if that horse must have the lead or closely press the leaders, and there are a few better early speeds inside, then he is definitely at a disadvantage breaking from the outside post, and will have to get very lucky in order to move near the rail before the first turn.

So, it really boils down to the horse in that outside post, how it prefers/needs to run, and what kind of speed it can display early, without expending too much energy.

[cj]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that tracks have some banking, so outside horses are running slightly downhill as they move closer to the inside.

[Augenj]

Originally Posted by cj

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that tracks have some banking, so outside horses are running slightly downhill as they move closer to the inside.

That's a good point. I guess it's for drainage. Seems like it would be easier to run downhill, even if it is a little bit.

[Ocala Mike]

Originally Posted by raybo

All the other post positions have horses or obstacles (the rail, except in races coming out of a chute, where the 1 post has no rail to worry about early) on both sides of them that they can have trouble with.

But there is another hidden danger which I have noticed at Aqueduct. The 1 post horse has to "worry about" the main track oval where it intersects the chute. I've seen some crazy ducking in and shying away from that opening many times.

[raybo]

Originally Posted by Ocala Mike

But there is another hidden danger which I have noticed at Aqueduct. The 1 post horse has to "worry about" the main track oval where it intersects the chute. I've seen some crazy ducking in and shying away from that opening many times.

True, but then, that's a track specific problem. So far, we've been talking in general terms. It's still preferable to being bumped, or worse, from both sides at the same time. That can ruin your day quick.

[Cratos]

Originally Posted by Augenj

That's a good point. I guess it's for drainage. Seems like it would be easier to run downhill, even if it is a little bit.

There is virtually no "hill" at all. If you calculate the height of the bank on the center of the main track turn at Belmont you will find it to about 3 feet on the outer edge of the 10 path and how many horses run in the 10 path around the turn?

The real problem for any horse in the turn is the side force impact which is greater the closer the horse is to the inside.

[Augenj]

Originally Posted by Cratos

There is virtually no "hill" at all. If you calculate the height of the bank on the center of the main track turn at Belmont you will find it to about 3 feet on the outer edge of the 10 path and how many horses run in the 10 path around the turn?

The real problem for any horse in the turn is the side force impact which is greater the closer the horse is to the inside.

Actually, I was thinking of horses dropping down towards the rail from an outside post and not the turns. They're coming downhill slightly. IMHO.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by cj

Every track is different. Like Pandy said, I've seen times where the rail in one turn races is a death sentence. It pays to know the track.

Good points, Totally true, also every horse is different...so, some horses with certain running styles might benefit more from the outside post than other running styles. Depends on the track, the horse's style and the pace profile of the race and how the race shapes up, know your track, know your horse and know your pace setup.

[Bettowin]

Originally Posted by Cratos

There is virtually no "hill" at all. If you calculate the height of the bank on the center of the main track turn at Belmont you will find it to about 3 feet on the outer edge of the 10 path and how many horses run in the 10 path around the turn?

The real problem for any horse in the turn is the side force impact which is greater the closer the horse is to the inside.

The bullring tracks have very high noticeable banked turns. The first time I went to Fonner Park I was surprised as to how much.

[Cratos]

Originally Posted by Bettowin

The bullring tracks have very high noticeable banked turns. The first time I went to Fonner Park I was surprised as to how much.

You are correct; the bullring tracks will have a higher banked turn, but the majority of thoroughbred racetracks in North America are 1 mile or greater in circumference with the length of the turn distance being between 1,200 and 1,400 feet; and are typically banked between 4 - 6 degrees.

However Gulfstream, Arlington, Aqueduct (Main), and Saratoga are all 1-1/8 mile tracks with slightly larger turns.

Belmont and Keeneland are "outliers" in that their sizes are 1-1/2 mile and 1-1/16 mile in circumference respectively.

[Cratos]

Originally Posted by Augenj

Actually, I was thinking of horses dropping down towards the rail from an outside post and not the turns. They're coming downhill slightly. IMHO.

I understand what you are saying, but I believe and I could be wrong that the surface angularity on the front and back straightaways of a typical racetrack would be nebulous on a horse’s acceleration because what is expected from downhill running is an increase in acceleration which would be minute on the straightaways.

Also on the straightaways, the horse is experiencing linear speed with linear acceleration. On the turns the horse experiences angular speed with angular acceleration. Linear acceleration is measured in feet while angular acceleration is measured in angles.

An illustration of the centripetal force between the Belmont turns and Saratoga turns are shown in the attached PDF.

[Ocala Mike]

And this latest discussion about banking and downhill brought to mind a distant memory that will only have meaning to NY old farts like me, "Ussery's Alley."

When the Big A first opened, Bobby Ussery quickly learned how to exploit the downhill banking entering the first turn off the chute. He was deadly with an outside post horse with a little speed, riding the horse near the outer rail down the straight, then seemingly picking up many lengths cruising "down the hill" to open up daylight on the field. It was like free money.

[Augenj]

Originally Posted by Cratos

I understand what you are saying, but I believe and I could be wrong that the surface angularity on the front and back straightaways of a typical racetrack would be nebulous on a horse’s acceleration because what is expected from downhill running is an increase in acceleration which would be minute on the straightaways.

Also on the straightaways, the horse is experiencing linear speed with linear acceleration. On the turns the horse experiences angular speed with angular acceleration. Linear acceleration is measured in feet while angular acceleration is measured in angles.

An illustration of the centripetal force between the Belmont turns and Saratoga turns are shown in the attached PDF.

I've always implied that effect would be "minute" or tiny or small or whatever adjective we can throw at it but it still exists, however minute. As far as linear acceleration on the straights? On the front straight, it's usually "deceleration" unless we're talking about Secretariat. The "least tired" pass the "more tired" horses, sometimes before and sometimes after the wire. In any case, we're splitting hairs here and I'm getting bored.