If Saratoga is hard, why play?

[Broad Brush]

I think that part of playing Spa is that you are a true fan of the game.

I firmly believe that if you are not a "fan" of the game you will not ever produce your best game. You will not be open to understanding it as much as you are capable of doing.

I can hardly wait for Friday!!

[Irish Boy]

I must be alone, but Saratoga is regularly my strongest meet. Make up my usual losses from the winter.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

I must say hello the next time I'm there! Won't be this year as I'm playing nurse and home attendant this year.

I haven't just made 25 trips since 88, I wasn't clear enough. I meant 25 trips (of 3-5 days) in the last decade. Anyway, YOU have me beat!

I don't know if you were kidding about the girls looking for a hook up but yes there are many young people who are to say the least rookies at this game.

I usually hang out all over both levels of the grandstand and make walks around the cavernous backyard as NYRA doesn't have a player rewards room up at the SPA. I can't help but people watch, especially when I'm at the machines waiting to punch through a thousand bucks worth of bets and the person in front of me is taking 5 minutes to pick the horse (via who has their favorite color or name) to wager $2 bucks on. I don't see much of that in December at Aqu, hence my thought. I wasn't talking about the people who are loyal to Saratoga and attend year after year and spend so much money on tourism/meals/lodging. They are the stalwarts of the meet.

My main point is that there might not be much but there is definitely some money, that in the long run is definitely losing money in the pools that differs from a pool at AQU in December. A horse might pay $16.40 as opposed to $15.80 due to the "rookie" money. That's all.

Wish you the best of luck at the SPA this year and safe travels! Hope the weather is more than good most of the meet.

You're betting that much and you're using conventional means?....I figured all the large volume players on property were using ADW's and making bets on laptops/tablets/I pads.
I se them around...There is a guy( I think he's a local dentist or doctor) he sets up shop at the end of the outdoor bar at the paddock fence. I think track management hooks him up with his own hi-top table, sit down table and seat. He puts his laptop out, has his handicapping publication spread out, etc...He has "the look" of a large volume player. He does his thing then just before the next race is cut loose, he's up at the nearest monitor. Last time I was in that area, he had his own monitor. He did't have to get up except to hit the head.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by Irish Boy

I must be alone, but Saratoga is regularly my strongest meet. Make up my usual losses from the winter.

I usually do rather well myself. Although there have been meets where the "bastards got me"....

[therussmeister]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

You want to show a profit for the year, right? If you think Spa (or DMR)is Hard why would you spend one minute on their races? Since 'everyone' is playing the Spa, that shows me people think they can beat it.

Why play? To get better. I make it a point to everyday play a mix of my most profitable races, and my worst races. I believe it is essential to challenge yourself constantly. You must never stop learning. To just play your best races is the beginning of the end of the profits. In a couple of years you will be one of those people saying you can't find but a few bets per month.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by therussmeister

Why play? To get better. I make it a point to everyday play a mix of my most profitable races, and my worst races. I believe it is essential to challenge yourself constantly. You must never stop learning. To just play your best races is the beginning of the end of the profits. In a couple of years you will be one of those people saying you can't find but a few bets per month.

Explain how you get better by losing money, cant you get better making mind bets if you feel the need to improve?

[raybo]

Originally Posted by Redboard

Some one here recently posted the average win payouts for the major tracks last year, and the SPA was at the bottom. Surprising in one sense because it's supposed to be the "graveyard of favorites," but I'm not surprised because I've noticed the last few years that it's harder and harder to find value.

On the contrary, Saratoga ranked 24th in 2014 (per HANA), that's not "at the bottom". Their average win payout was $11.85, well above average. And that is why I play it. I've made positive ROIs the last 3 years there, on win bets alone.

The track is hard to 'cap, using traditional handicapping methods, but that means added value for those who don't use those traditional methods.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by thespaah

You're betting that much and you're using conventional means?....I figured all the large volume players on property were using ADW's and making bets on laptops/tablets/I pads.
I se them around...There is a guy( I think he's a local dentist or doctor) he sets up shop at the end of the outdoor bar at the paddock fence. I think track management hooks him up with his own hi-top table, sit down table and seat. He puts his laptop out, has his handicapping publication spread out, etc...He has "the look" of a large volume player. He does his thing then just before the next race is cut loose, he's up at the nearest monitor. Last time I was in that area, he had his own monitor. He did't have to get up except to hit the head.

Year round I'm at Bel or Aqu's players club (till this past March when my mother was hit by a 96 year old who crashed into a store and my track days have stopped). When I visit the spa it was with my GF and family. So, I'm doing the entertaining while I wager. Luckily, the family and the GF knew when to stop the "entertaining" so we can properly put the action down. Even if NYRA had a players club up at the SPA, I prbably wouldn't use it. The ambiance is too nice and there's just too much to enjoy around the facilities.

[Cratos]

I have attended the Spa every year for a very long time and the full meet since 1990.

I don't see Saratoga as a separate "boutique meet" because I play NYRA almost exclusively except for the TC races, the BC, and an occasional winter race at Gulfstream.

Is it a tough meet for bettors? I don't think so, but meets like Saratoga, Del Mar, and Keeneland do bring out the best horses and handicappers and that makes them appear to be tougher than they are.

However those tracks are not tougher; just more "formful."

[Redboard]

Originally Posted by raybo

On the contrary, Saratoga ranked 24th in 2014 (per HANA), that's not "at the bottom". Their average win payout was $11.85, well above average. And that is why I play it. I've made positive ROIs the last 3 years there, on win bets alone.

The track is hard to 'cap, using traditional handicapping methods, but that means added value for those who don't use those traditional methods.

For a meet of only six weeks with all those shippers and top connections, I would think it would be a lot higher than 24th.

Do you have a link to the HANA data you referenced, I couldn't find it.

Thanks

[pandy]

I've been handicapping Saratoga for a long time and I do picks for a tipsheet (Lawton) that's sold at the track and sells extremely well. There have actually been a few meets that were very formful with a higher than normal percentage of winning favorites but I doubt that will be the case this year, purses are high, should be wide open.

main differences between Belmont and Saratoga:

1). Bigger fields and more shippers
2). Tighter turns on turf courses, bigger fields, outside posts can be ice cold, although I've seen meets where they do okay and that really messes you up
3). A lot of first time two year old starters in some big fields.

So yes, it's definitely tougher to handicap than Belmont. Any time you have bigger fields and more shippers it's tougher, not just because of added competition and unknown factors (shippers) but more horses get troubled trips, and of course on these turf courses with big fields there are a ton of horses that get blocked or get impossible wide trips.

The key to Saratoga is, you've got to go for prices. Meets like this are more suited to big bettors who spread a lot in exotics and can show a profit at the the end of the meet just because they had a couple of big scores.

I just finished handicapping opening day, I made my two Best Bets longshots in turf races. There isn't a horse on the card that looks like a lock.

[delayjf]

For the reasons you site above, I think Delmar is easiler that Saratoga. Delmar is basically Santa Anita shipped down south.

Although this year has been an exception, most of the time there is little weather to contend with, which allows for (IMO) more accurate figure making. Dealing with the track bias can be problematic because it can change from day to day.

Another issue with figures is that at Saratoga you have to deal with horses shipping in from multiple circuits, forcing handicappers to compare figures from different tracks, this can be tricky as comparisons are not cut and dry.

[raybo]

Originally Posted by Redboard

For a meet of only six weeks with all those shippers and top connections, I would think it would be a lot higher than 24th.

Do you have a link to the HANA data you referenced, I couldn't find it.

Thanks

Don't have the link, it was in one of the articles. Here is the top 24 they listed for 2014:

Track Average Win Price

Del Mar $ 14.23
Gulfstream West $ 14.02
Oaklawn $ 13.99
Delta Downs $ 13.60
Keeneland $ 13.44
Remington $ 13.35
Gulfstream $ 13.17
Evangeline Downs $ 13.09
Woodbine $ 13.09
Turfway Park $ 13.01
Albuquerque $ 12.82
Tampa Bay $ 12.62
Pimlico $ 12.47
Laurel $ 12.34
Santa Anita $ 12.33
Monmouth $ 12.20
Canterbury $ 12.14
Indiana Downs $ 12.13
Retama $ 12.12
Northlands $ 12.02
Kentucky Downs $ 11.95
Fairgrounds $ 11.95
Louisiana Downs $ 11.88
Saratoga $ 11.85

[pandy]

Originally Posted by delayjf

For the reasons you site above, I think Delmar is easiler that Saratoga. Delmar is basically Santa Anita shipped down south.

Although this year has been an exception, most of the time there is little weather to contend with, which allows for (IMO) more accurate figure making. Dealing with the track bias can be problematic because it can change from day to day.

Another issue with figures is that at Saratoga you have to deal with horses shipping in from multiple circuits, forcing handicappers to compare figures from different tracks, this can be tricky as comparisons are not cut and dry.

I agree.

[lamboguy]

if you are going to win in these places you are going to earn the money. these places have tremendous pools to shoot at, if you are dealing with the right material you can take down life changing scores.