Religion II

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Mr. Greyfox, has the biblical evidence I've presented here and earlier regarding your concerns about the eternal states of the saints been adequately addressed?

Huh? I don't recall having concerns about the eternal states of saints?
I still have a long ways to go with to regards of what does and does not take place in the afterlife, if there is really one.
I'm currently reading Ken Follett's thick book A Column of Fire.
It's hard to believe how cruel Christians were to one another - Catholics vs Protestants in the 1500's. That's just Christians hating other Christians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Column_of_Fire

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Huh? I don't recall having concerns about the eternal states of saints?
I still have a long ways to go with to regards of what does and does not take place in the afterlife, if there is really one.
I'm currently reading Ken Follett's thick book A Column of Fire.
It's hard to believe how cruel Christians were to one another - Catholics vs Protestants in the 1500's. That's just Christians hating other Christians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Column_of_Fire

You thought Light's concern about the saints' memories of their loved ones condemned and suffering for all eternity in hell was a legitimate concern. I addressed that issue in two posts.

Some of the history of Christianity is certainly sordid but just remember: The bible doesn't support or condone any of that behavior, plus not all Christians participated in it.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You thought Light's concern about the saints' memories of their loved ones condemned and suffering for all eternity in hell was a legitimate concern. I addressed that issue in two posts.

Some of the history of Christianity is certainly sordid but just remember: The bible doesn't support or condone any of that behavior, plus not all Christians participated in it.

How does a religion with a "sordid" history dare to proclaim Jesus Christ as its founder?

[HalvOnHorseracing]

The Catholics believed the Protestants (and obviously the Muslims) were apostate based on Matthew 16:18

"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it." NASB

That may explain why Catholic Christians fought with the Protestant Christians.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

Standard reply of modern philosophy of science which doesn't question the origins (Descartes, et.al., wanting to quantify nature in order to control it, so rejected qualia [subjective experience]).

That is, give the 3rd person, objective mathematical description of nature ("Red is wavelengths") sans the 1st person , conscious subjective experience of it ("Red is...[fill in the blank for everyone's conscious, unique experience of that shade of color]").

Like Dennett, you assert everything as utterly knowable from a physicalist presupposition. Like Dennett, one must explain away consciousness and subjective experience (qualia) in order to do so.

Reminds me of a line from Shakespeare's Love's Labors Lost, "They have been to a great feast of languages and stolen the scraps."

"Quale" is a word that did not exist 100 years ago. By boxcar's standards that means it is not a word at all. For all intents and purposes it is another religion.

Consider this. If you appeal to religion to explain anything then the explanations you get are going to depend on what time in history and what place on the planet you trace that religion to.

On the other hand science is independent of time and geography. It always leads to the same answers. Should we ever be visited by aliens from another planet their science will be the same as ours, the only difference being that they will certainly be far more advanced than we. But their religion, if they have one, will certainly be different.

While it is true that our scientific journey has lead us down some blind alleys (e.g., the Aristotlean view of motion, the Ptolemaic view of cosmology, the miasmic theory of disease, the aether theory of waves) the fact remains that science is self correcting.

• Test ideas by experiment and observation.
• Build on those ideas that pass the test.
• Reject the ones that fail.
• Follow the evidence wherever it leads.
• Question everything.

Science has given you the car you drive, medical care that has extended your life, the computer on which you post in this forum, etc., etc., etc.

So science does not have to "explain away" consciousness, rather it seeks to explain it, and I am confident it will ultimately succeed. And science has explained origins (the big bang, evolution, etc.)

The religious do not hesitate to use the products of science but the truth is that science scares them. And it scares them for two reasons: (1)they don't understand it and (2)they feel threatened by it. They feel threatened by it because it assaults their ego, they want to believe that they were created in the image of a god rather than descended from an ape. They don't want to believe that psychiatry and drugs can alter behavior. Indeed, some do not even want to accept the existence of mental illness. At least one characterizes an accident that destroyed a significant portion of a person's brain as "a bad hair day."

[Actor]

Has anyone else noticed that there seem to be quite a few religious ads here lately?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

How does a religion with a "sordid" history dare to proclaim Jesus Christ as its founder?

Because all men are corrupt and they have corrupted Jesus' teachings. I'm sure many professing Christians believed they were acting in "good faith" when they killed other people. As the good book basically says, " it isn't good to have zeal without [true] knowledge" (Prov 19:2).

Look what the apostle Paul did to Christians before Christ got a hold of him.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Has anyone else noticed that there seem to be quite a few religious ads here lately?

I'm sending them this way.

And, no, I haven't noticed. I use and ad blocker.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Oh...so you are sinless! You are like God! You're above sin! You truly have arrived, haven't you? Should we all bow down and kiss the soles of your feet?

The illusion of sin does not mean we are sinless. It means that we are ignorant of who we really are. Who we think we are does not exist. It is a construct of our minds, whose illusions do not exist.

The proof is in how your identity has changed over the years. When you were a boy, you had one identity, then others through different stages of your life. None of them real. What you looked like changed in some cases as to not be able to tell the two faces are the same person. Your thought processes and beliefs also changed and who and what you loved and hated also changed.

When one looks at the totality of their life, one can see that we are nothing. Not in a negative way but in our identities. They have been created for us ,but not by us, but by the illusions of being in this world.

Jesus said "forgive them for they know not what they do". And that applies to the sinners. This is the "illusion of Sin" I was referring to. Even Hitler thought he was doing good.

Reality does not exist but within you. Only when you transcend your mind's internal dialog can you become small enough, almost nothing, in order to enter the eye of the needle that Jesus said the rich man cannot go through. This is where Heaven is and why Jesus said the Kingdom of God/heaven is within you.

2000 years later, ignorant people like you are trying to twist what Jesus said into it's opposite meaning because you don't understand what it means to be "nothing". On the contrary, you think God has reserved your seat in Heaven and that you are one of the few. An arrogant and most unwise posture to make. Because only when you are truly "nothing" can you experience God. The opposite is also true.

Everything you spout here is from the illusions of your mind. All this "knowledge" of scripture that you think you possess will all be wiped away from your consciousness when you pass. You will not be quizzed on it. Only what is in your heart will be revealed. That will be your "judgement". And there are no words or illusions to hide behind in there.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by Light

Reality does not exist but within you.

If you see a bus driving down the street, don't step in front of that illusion or you might find out what reality really is.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

The illusion of sin does not mean we are sinless. It means that we are ignorant of who we really are. Who we think we are does not exist. It is a construct of our minds, whose illusions do not exist.

The proof is in how your identity has changed over the years. When you were a boy, you had one identity, then others through different stages of your life. None of them real. What you looked like changed in some cases as to not be able to tell the two faces are the same person. Your thought processes and beliefs also changed and who and what you loved and hated also changed.

When one looks at the totality of their life, one can see that we are nothing. Not in a negative way but in our identities. They have been created for us ,but not by us, but by the illusions of being in this world.

Jesus said "forgive them for they know not what they do". And that applies to the sinners. This is the "illusion of Sin" I was referring to. Even Hitler thought he was doing good.

Reality does not exist but within you. Only when you transcend your mind's internal dialog can you become small enough, almost nothing, in order to enter the eye of the needle that Jesus said the rich man cannot go through. This is where Heaven is and why Jesus said the Kingdom of God/heaven is within you.

2000 years later, ignorant people like you are trying to twist what Jesus said into it's opposite meaning because you don't understand what it means to be "nothing". On the contrary, you think God has reserved your seat in Heaven and that you are one of the few. An arrogant and most unwise posture to make. Because only when you are truly "nothing" can you experience God. The opposite is also true.

Everything you spout here is from the illusions of your mind. All this "knowledge" of scripture that you think you possess will all be wiped away from your consciousness when you pass. You will not be quizzed on it. Only what is in your heart will be revealed. That will be your "judgement". And there are no words or illusions to hide behind in there.

(emphasis mine)

And what about all the knowledge you think you possess? Does that get flushed down the toilet, too, "from your consciousness when you pass"? Or is your "knowledge" super special 'cause you bought it on sale at Wally World?

Are Jesus' words illusions, too? He didn't seem to think so -- but then again -- you know so much more than he ever did, right?

Matt 24:35
35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

And,

Ps 119:89
9 Your word, O Lord, is eternal;
it stands firm in the heavens.
NIV

And,

1 Peter 1:25
25 But the word of the Lord abides forever. "
NASB


Methinks your spiritual drivel, which you believe is "enlightenment" will pass away long before God's eternal word does.

Hitler thought he was doing good due to the self-deceived nature of his wicked heart.

And when Jesus prayed for the forgiveness of his murderers, the sin of murder they committed against him was not a mere illusion. They actually murdered their Messiah! One's personal ignorance does not nullify reality. When a blind man walks his path and is ignorant of all that lies in his path before him due to his darkness, this doesn't mean that his path and all that is on it is an illusion. Nor does it mean that his physical blindness is an illusion!

Or if you're swimming in a lagoon off in some tropical paradise and are ignorant that tiger sharks like to visit that lagoon, and you get attacked and one bites off a a limb or two from your body, and you survive and when you wake up from surgery and find you're missing an arm and can no longer wiggle your toes and you start freaking out, I suppose you'd be perfectly okay if the nurse or doctor told you that your missing limbs are merely an illusion -- because after all, you didn't know that you were trespassing in shark territory.

Acts 3:14-18
4 "But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses. 16 "And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all. 17 "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also.
NASB

Jesus didn't bear the illusion of his people's sins in his body -- he actually bore their real sins! He paid, on behalf of his people, their real sin debt. And sin is lawlessness! Sin is doing what is wrong or not doing what is right!

And who exactly is going to judge me or anyone else? Certainly not your god who loves all things unconditionally and is in all things, and all things are in him, right? Certainly not your god who loves wickedness as much as he loves righteousness. Who loves evil as much as he loves good. After all...your god is love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love ad nauseum. And because you're so in love with your idea and idol of love, you think you have it made. You think that your god has good things in store for you after you kick the bucket-- you being under the illusion that just loving the idea of love is good enough and is your free get-out-of-jail pass! Your self-deceived heart believes you'll be able to stand before the Almighty and maybe even boast about how much you know about love. But listen to these eternal words of the Living God:

Ps 15
1 Lord, who may dwell in your sanctuary?
Who may live on your holy hill?

2 He whose walk is blameless
and who does what is righteous,
who speaks the truth from his heart
3 and has no slander on his tongue,
who does his neighbor no wrong
and casts no slur on his fellowman,
4 who despises a vile man
but honors those who fear the Lord,
who keeps his oath
even when it hurts,
5 who lends his money without usury
and does not accept a bribe against the innocent.

He who DOES these things
will never be shaken.[/b]
NIV

And your pal Jesus, in concluding his Sermon on the Mount, concurred with the psalmist when he said:

Matt 7:24-27
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and ACTS upon them, may be compared to a wise man, who built his house upon the rock. 25 "And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and burst against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded upon the rock. 26 "And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not act upon them, will be like a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand. 27 "And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and burst against that house; and it fell, and great was its fall." NASB

So tell me, Mr. Light, which are you: The wise man or the fool? Is your walk blameless before God? Do you delight in doing what is righteous? Do you despise vile, wicked people? Do you honor all true God-fearing disciples of Jesus Christ? Do you really prove your love for Jesus by doing his commands or do you just pay him lip service?

One more thing, Mr. Self-righteous, sinless, I-have-arrived, self-proclaimed expert-on-love and spiritual reality God has "reserved" much more than a seat for me in heaven because God in Christ condescended and came down to earth to pay my personal sin debt! God in Christ lived the perfect, sinless life that is impossible for any sinner in this world to live, AND he paid my personal sin debt on the Cross that I was totally unworthy to have cancelled, and should be paying in the next for all eternity since all sin is infinitely offensive to an infinitely holy, righteous God.

Your "best friend" Jesus promised all his disciples:

John 14:2-3
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV

And where Jesus is is in heaven on the Throne of God. So, yes...Heaven is the last stop, and Jesus has prepared a very special place there for all those who trust him, love him and keep his commandments in this life. Can I get a hearty AMEN to all this? (Just a rhetorical to which we all know the answer.)

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

If you see a bus driving down the street, don't step in front of that illusion or you might find out what reality really is.

This is what I love about these do-it-yourselves, self-enlightened ones: Everything is under the sun is an illusion, excepts the thoughts of their own minds, which they're all too eager and willing to share with anyone who will listen to tell us how ignorant we are of reality.

But notice the common thread among the "spiritual" and the atheistic materialist alike: They both deny Truth. In Light's case, he denies everything the bible teaches about sin. In Actor's he denies the existence of Jesus Christ. Is it any wonder the skeptic Pontius Pilate asked of Jesus, "What is truth?" How ironic -- when The Truth was standing right before him!

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Is it any wonder the skeptic Pontius Pilate asked of Jesus, "What is truth?"

That question was asked by the Greeks 300 years earlier. The fact that the author of the gospel of Mark put the question in Pilate's mouth is consistent with Christianity being of Greek origin.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

In Actor's he denies the existence of Jesus Christ.

I question the existence of any deity. There is a difference between denying and questioning. The only claim I make is that I know of no evidence which would prove the existence of any deity.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

If you see a bus driving down the street, don't step in front of that illusion or you might find out what reality really is.

If the bus is only in your mind then it is an illusion.