Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You told us Make up ypur feeble mind. How do the details of original sin like generations of innocent humans inheriting all the sin caused by one couple? Who in fact set up all the "ground rules" of this absurd doctrine? Did fallen angels create the mechanism of Plaguing humanity forever? Maybe humans chose to fall according to you, but I thought the specific workings of salvation and punishment were your god's doing?

I think both thaskalos and I have decimated your ridiculous theory. Your god sounds like Rube Goldberg. In engineering speak the word "kludge" describes just how cumbersome and unreliable you and your god truly are. It actually gives you too much credit.

It is your mind that is feeble! Just because God is the Final Cause of all things does not make him morally responsible for man's moral choices, since man himself is the EFFICIENT CAUSE of his own choices. Even, then Adam, freely chose to disobey God. Perhaps you need to bone up on the classical version of Aristotle's Realism and try to understand the Four Causes before calling anyone here "feeble".

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

The movement of time on the human and close to human scale of things is always from before to after.

You're exactly right! You should listen to yourself! Our Tomorrows always precede our Todays. And our Today's always precede our Yesterdays. In other words, logically, the Future is always UPSTREAM to the Present. The Present is always being "fed" by the Future with a FRESH, UNUSED supply of Time. In the Present, we use or consume time. But once Time passes through the portal of the Present and steams by us into the Past, Time become spent or used. In your flow of Time, you necessarily have used and unused time flowing into the Present to be used again. Talk about illogical!

Tell us, Mr. 'cap, in your alternate universe, just how do your Yesterdays become Yesterdays? Explain that to us, please.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

It is your mind that is feeble! Just because God is the Final Cause of all things does not make him morally responsible for man's moral choices, since man himself is the EFFICIENT CAUSE of his own choices. Even, then Adam, freely chose to disobey God. Perhaps you need to bone up on the classical version of Aristotle's Realism and try to understand the Four Causes before calling anyone here "feeble".

Is God the "cause" of world-wide famine and disease?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Is God the "cause" of world-wide famine and disease?

Again...try to digest this. Sinful mankind is the Efficient Cause of all this world's ills; whereas God is the Final Cause of all things. Try to understand the differences between these two causes -- and for that matter between all Four Causes of Aristotle. You no doubt missed my posts on the Religious thread wherein I explained these Four Causes.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Again...try to digest this. Sinful mankind is the Efficient Cause of all this world's ills; whereas God is the Final Cause of all things. Try to understand the differences between these two causes -- and for that matter between all Four Causes of Aristotle. You no doubt missed my posts on the Religious thread wherein I explained these Four Causes.

Leave Aristotle out of this, and explain to me how cancer is MAN'S fault...in a world where God has the "final say" in whether something occurs or not.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Leave Aristotle out of this, and explain to me how cancer is MAN'S fault...in a world where God has the "final say" in whether something occurs or not.

I know you're not a dense guy, but U, Shirley, can be obstinate! Why can't you understand that the entire world is under God's curse due to mankind's sin? Sin the promised penalty for sin was Death, why do question the existence of any disease that kills?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I know you're not a dense guy, but U, Shirley, can be obstinate! Why can't you understand that the entire world is under God's curse due to mankind's sin? Sin the promised penalty for sin was Death, why do question the existence of any disease that kills?

So...when you see a St. Jude Children's Hospital commercial on TV...you just tell yourself that "justice is being done"?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Is God the "cause" of world-wide famine and disease?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Sinful mankind is the Efficient Cause of all this world's ills; ...

A newborn child suffers a horrible death. Since mankind is sinful that death is just.

Another child is born into a wealthy family. With the help of his family he becomes even more wealthy, lives a life of ease and pleasure. In his old age he dies in his sleep and never saw it coming. That too is just.

I know you are not big on clarification but, according to you, are both of the above correct?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

A newborn child suffers a horrible death. Since mankind is sinful that death is just.

Another child is born into a wealthy family. With the help of his family he becomes even more wealthy, lives a life of ease and pleasure. In his old age he dies in his sleep and never saw it coming. That too is just.

I know you are not big on clarification but, according to you, are both of the above correct?

Is one more dead or less dead than the other?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

So...when you see a St. Jude Children's Hospital commercial on TV...you just tell yourself that "justice is being done"?

I don't see commercials because I don't watch TV. But I understand your point. Christians can and certainly should enter into the sorrows and heartaches of this fallen world. But this doesn't detract from the fact that God's judgements are righteous.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Is one more dead or less dead than the other?

Like I said, you are not big on clarification.

The question is not about death. It's about life.

Definition of just -- (1)conforming with what is morally right or good. (2)a punishment or reward which is deserved.

Is it just that one person who has committed no sin should have a short life and an agonizing death while another who commits many sins lives a long life of luxury, pleasure, leisure and never sees death coming?

[Hank]

OH NO NOT AGAIN!!!!

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

It is your mind that is feeble! Just because God is the Final Cause of all things does not make him morally responsible for man's moral choices, since man himself is the EFFICIENT CAUSE of his own choices. Even, then Adam, freely chose to disobey God. Perhaps you need to bone up on the classical version of Aristotle's Realism and try to understand the Four Causes before calling anyone here "feeble".

You are ignoring the DERAILS of just how original sin was set up and arranged. Forget whether or not Adam blew it. I told you

How do the details of original sin like generations of innocent humans inheriting all the sin caused by one couple? Who in fact set up all the "ground rules" of this absurd doctrine? Did fallen angels create the mechanism of Plaguing humanity forever? Maybe humans chose to fall according to you, but I thought the specific workings of salvation and punishment were your god's doing?

In other the words WHO decided all the absurd gory details?
Ifd not god, then the devil who you deny? Remember the devil is in the details

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You're exactly right! You should listen to yourself! Our Tomorrows always precede our Todays. And our Today's always precede our Yesterdays. In other words, logically, the Future is always UPSTREAM to the Present. The Present is always being "fed" by the Future with a FRESH, UNUSED supply of Time. In the Present, we use or consume time. But once Time passes through the portal of the Present and steams by us into the Past, Time become spent or used. In your flow of Time, you necessarily have used and unused time flowing into the Present to be used again. Talk about illogical!

Tell us, Mr. 'cap, in your alternate universe, just how do your Yesterdays become Yesterdays? Explain that to us, please.

Complete nonsense. Mr world-famous physicist. Just word games and words used wrongly. Since this idiocy comes from your 11 part paper on an an alternate trinity. Please post the link so we can have a few pages of giggles. What are you afraid of?

Meanwhile

"how do your Yesterdays become Yesterdays? Explain that to us, please."

As conscious or unconscious (in your case) beings we speak in common terms or should. Yesterday is a relative term we use memory to point too. If tomorrow preceded today and yesterday, memory would not work.

Please tell us about cause and effect and how if what you babble about were accurate tomorrow can somehow provide a set of causes for today and yesterday.

I think your problem (among many) is you do not realize that all of us are experiencing the movement of time as a series of changing events. The time reference we all use is the present moment. The future does not become today, nor does today become yesterday. That erroneous conclusion occurs to you thinking time moves relative to you as though you yourself were not moving with the rest of the universe from before to after.You are not standing still in time and everything else is not moving towards you and then moving past you

Btw, time can neither be spent or used as though it was a commodity. It is as many better physicists than you have explained the "fourth dimension". Does the name Einstein ring a bell?

Do you consume length, depth and height?