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Old 03-09-2018, 01:29 PM   #226
DGroundhog
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Originally Posted by Tom View Post
What track do you work for again?

Next thing you will say is we should take the initiative to bring our own timers if we are going to whine about the track morons inability to time a race.

I would suggest the racetrack employees are vastly over-paid for the crappy products they put out and should take pay cuts to bring the track up to a minimally acceptable level.

Btw, the Kennland Boycott worked. How did those stupid, whining bettors ever pull that one off?

No one with half a brain needs to take that class you suggested - a simpleton could improve most race tracks off the top of his head. It's only rocket science when you are an idiot.
Well, then they should apply for a position to manage a race track and fix the problems.

...or you can continue to complain from behind a monitor.
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Old 03-09-2018, 01:33 PM   #227
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Mr. DGHog,

Are you saying that you believe the tracks would take advice from actual bettors?

I ask, because it appears that is something that has rarely, if ever, happened.


Dave Schwartz
AlsoEligible already laid out things the race tracks have done to address the complaints about late odds changes. There are even some additional things that have been done. There HAS been an improvement - but you don't see any praise for what has been done or what has been improved upon. Just the same old complaints.
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Old 03-09-2018, 02:02 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by DGroundhog View Post
AlsoEligible already laid out things the race tracks have done to address the complaints about late odds changes. There are even some additional things that have been done. There HAS been an improvement - but you don't see any praise for what has been done or what has been improved upon. Just the same old complaints.
The system is archaic. Taking a 1980s-era system to an early Y2k system does not qualify as progress.

In fact, the entire game itself is archaic in so many ways.

There are so many people who believe that horse racing has an integrity level on par with WWF.

We live in an age where integrity COULD and SHOULD be as close to perfect as possible. "Improvement" is just not enough if the industry expects to survive.

What do I mean by "close to perfect?"
Cheating demands a stiff penalty.
  • 1st offense 5 years
  • 2nd offense lifetime
Should every bettor on every wager not have the expectation that the game's integrity is solid?

While Pete Rose's penalty was probably too severe, the message was sent pretty clearly.
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Old 03-09-2018, 02:13 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by AlsoEligible View Post
The talent is already out there. I know plenty of people who have come out of the program within the last decade who have good and innovative ideas. But there's a huge difference between having an idea, and convincing the forces of nature already entrenched in the industry to implement said new idea. If you do work in the industry, then you should know that already.

Regardless, telling people that if they don't like the way things are, they should relocate to Arizona to take a college course and then work in the industry to fix it...that's has to be trolling, right?

They're gamblers. Our job is to give them a good product worth investing their money in. If we're not doing that, they will (and should) go find something else to play.

Attitudes like this are what convince me that horse racing is not going to survive the legalization of sports betting. But maybe when there's only 10 tracks left in the country, and only a handful of off-track wagering sources, we can finally get the odds updates down to 5 seconds.
I agree there is talent already in the pipeline and working to fix issues. My comment was tongue in cheek. If some think it is so easy to fix the problems, then why not encourage them to do so?

There might have been a bit of trolling involved, but it was more an effort to get them thinking about how much change they would actually be able to implement with any sort of fiscal responsibility.

You have quite a bit of patience, knowledge, empathy and do an excellent job trying to reassure people that their complaints are being addressed. I commend you for that.

...but how do you get thru to them if they are unwilling to accept what you have just explained? If logic, reason and facts don't work, maybe a little sarcasm might?
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Old 03-09-2018, 02:30 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz View Post
The system is archaic. Taking a 1980s-era system to an early Y2k system does not qualify as progress.

In fact, the entire game itself is archaic in so many ways.

There are so many people who believe that horse racing has an integrity level on par with WWF.

We live in an age where integrity COULD and SHOULD be as close to perfect as possible. "Improvement" is just not enough if the industry expects to survive.

What do I mean by "close to perfect?"
Cheating demands a stiff penalty.
  • 1st offense 5 years
  • 2nd offense lifetime
Should every bettor on every wager not have the expectation that the game's integrity is solid?

While Pete Rose's penalty was probably too severe, the message was sent pretty clearly.
1980s era? You are being far too generous. It's a mish mash of 1960s, 1980s and modern era equipment - and THAT might even be too generous (depending on the track).

The sport suffers from many of the same issues that other sports and gambling suffers from, and there are steps in place to try to combat that.

Lance Armstrong won multiple Tour de Frances before his doping was uncovered. Card counters, players or referees influencing game outcomes and other systems of 'cheating' are not as uncommon as they should be, and may never be.

Tracks do what they can, when they can for the most part. They do want a fair game. They do listen to reasonable complaints. Not everybody accepts that and I've seen numerous comments of 'the tracks hate us' or similar used.

Some people are nearly impossible to satisfy. They want their Oompa Loompa and they want it NOW!
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Old 03-09-2018, 02:54 PM   #231
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Quote:
There HAS been an improvement - but you don't see any praise for what has been done or what has been improved upon. Just the same old complaints.
Praise?
I called them morons, or maybe idiots, I forget.
THAT is what they deserve.

I have already fixed the problem for myself - by cutting my betting by over 90% the last few years. I am not alone, and if YOU are a spokesman for the tracks, there will be many more.
Apparently that so-called "course" you are harping on is worthless, because the problem ain't fixed and it ain't rocket science to fix it. But with attitudes like yours, I can see why. Let the CUSTOMERS fix it??? You are a joke.

When I hear "same old complaints" hat come to mind is "same old idiots' in charge.

Henry Ford once bragged that people could buy any color they wanted, as long as it was black. You know what they bought?

Chevys.
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Old 03-09-2018, 05:35 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Tom View Post
Praise?
I called them morons, or maybe idiots, I forget.
THAT is what they deserve.

I have already fixed the problem for myself - by cutting my betting by over 90% the last few years. I am not alone, and if YOU are a spokesman for the tracks, there will be many more.
Apparently that so-called "course" you are harping on is worthless, because the problem ain't fixed and it ain't rocket science to fix it. But with attitudes like yours, I can see why. Let the CUSTOMERS fix it??? You are a joke.

When I hear "same old complaints" hat come to mind is "same old idiots' in charge.

Henry Ford once bragged that people could buy any color they wanted, as long as it was black. You know what they bought?

Chevys.
You blanket insult them, but you expect them to treat you with respect, listen closely to your complaints and address them?

I'm definitely not a spokesman. Too brutally honest for that.

I don't think you even understand what is involved in fixing the problem, so uninformed criticism isn't really constructive.

I'm not saying 'let the customers fix it'. I'm saying if you are so willing to criticize race tracks for not fixing the problem, why not consider trying to fix the problems from the inside?
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Old 03-09-2018, 05:38 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by DGroundhog View Post
1980s era? You are being far too generous. It's a mish mash of 1960s, 1980s and modern era equipment - and THAT might even be too generous (depending on the track).

The sport suffers from many of the same issues that other sports and gambling suffers from, and there are steps in place to try to combat that.

Tracks do what they can, when they can for the most part. They do want a fair game. They do listen to reasonable complaints. Not everybody accepts that and I've seen numerous comments of 'the tracks hate us' or similar used.

Some people are nearly impossible to satisfy. They want their Oompa Loompa and they want it NOW!
Yes, the tracks have always been customer-first.



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Old 03-09-2018, 05:45 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DGroundhog View Post
1980s era? You are being far too generous. It's a mish mash of 1960s, 1980s and modern era equipment - and THAT might even be too generous (depending on the track).

The sport suffers from many of the same issues that other sports and gambling suffers from, and there are steps in place to try to combat that.

Lance Armstrong won multiple Tour de Frances before his doping was uncovered. Card counters, players or referees influencing game outcomes and other systems of 'cheating' are not as uncommon as they should be, and may never be.

Tracks do what they can, when they can for the most part. They do want a fair game. They do listen to reasonable complaints. Not everybody accepts that and I've seen numerous comments of 'the tracks hate us' or similar used.

Some people are nearly impossible to satisfy.
They want their Oompa Loompa and they want it NOW!
I, for one, am quite satisfied with the job that the tracks are doing. They are efficiently siphoning their takeout from the betting pools without any hitch whatsoever.
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Old 03-09-2018, 06:09 PM   #235
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How the 10th a GS was bet Today.


Post Pos 2 3 4 5 6 7

Gate Odds 7-1 4-1 6-1 20-1 1-2 19-1

LD Odds 3-1 5-2 18-1 7-1 6-1 12-1

Final Odds 9-2 3-1 7-1 12-1 4-5 15-1


Gate Odds are taken when the first horse enters the gate. The final odds are self explanatory. The last dump odds are the odds the horses were bet in the last dump. For this week the last dump has averaged 36% of the win pool. For this race it was 23 percent of the win pool. 1 of two races where the last dump was under 30 percent.
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Old 03-09-2018, 10:22 PM   #236
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How the 10th a GS was bet Today.


Post Pos........2........3.......4.........5.........6. ........7

Gate Odds....7-1.....4-1.....6-1....20-1.....1-2.....19-1

LD Odds......3-1.....5-2.....18-1....7-1......6-1.....12-1

Final Odds....9-2.....3-1.....7-1.....12-1....4-5.....15-1


Gate Odds are taken when the first horse enters the gate. The final odds are self explanatory. The last dump odds are the odds the horses were bet in the last dump. For this week the last dump has averaged 36% of the win pool. For this race it was 23 percent of the win pool. 1 of two races where the last dump was under 30 percent.
this is easier to look at.
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Old 03-09-2018, 11:52 PM   #237
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In the last 3 days, the top choice in the last dump has won 12 of 32 races. The second choice in the last dump has also won 12 of 32 races. So the top 2 choices have won 75% of the races.
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Old 03-10-2018, 01:06 AM   #238
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How the 10th a GS was bet Today.


Post Pos 2 3 4 5 6 7

Gate Odds 7-1 4-1 6-1 20-1 1-2 19-1

LD Odds 3-1 5-2 18-1 7-1 6-1 12-1

Final Odds 9-2 3-1 7-1 12-1 4-5 15-1


Gate Odds are taken when the first horse enters the gate. The final odds are self explanatory. The last dump odds are the odds the horses were bet in the last dump. For this week the last dump has averaged 36% of the win pool. For this race it was 23 percent of the win pool. 1 of two races where the last dump was under 30 percent.
...and how do you propose race tracks stop that 'last dump'? The 'last dump' is very different from odds changing during the race - which, unless you want to stop betting when the horses start to load is inevitable.

Several years back, Belmont (maybe all NY tracks) locked betting when horses started to load. I have never heard so much bitching as when pools would lock when horses started to load - but hey, at least the odds weren't changing during the race.

There is literally no pleasing some of you people. What do you want? No odds changes during the race - or no 'final dump' odds change?
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Old 03-10-2018, 01:12 AM   #239
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In the last 3 days, the top choice in the last dump has won 12 of 32 races. The second choice in the last dump has also won 12 of 32 races. So the top 2 choices have won 75% of the races.
So you are saying horse player should bet sooner and not wait until the last minute? Maybe they should also quit complaining when they get shut out because they waited so long?

What is your solution?
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Old 03-10-2018, 01:18 AM   #240
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I, for one, am quite satisfied with the job that the tracks are doing. They are efficiently siphoning their takeout from the betting pools without any hitch whatsoever.
OMG, tracks take a percentage of the purses to fund racing! The horror.... the horror....

The tracks themselves only get a fraction of the takeout. Why aren't you complaining about the State's chunk or the HBPA's chunk?

You know what I hardly ever hear complaints about? The approximately 50% takeout from lottery players or pull tab players. They are getting ROYALLY SCREWED, but hardly any complaints at all.
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