Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

This “eternal life” that you claim is yours because of your faith in Christ and the power of his death on the cross is bizarre...how can any reasonable person think that they will “live forever”...? Not only that, aside from its impossibility, why would anyone want to...?

For years, I struggled with the idea of our mortality, until I realized that, indeed, there was no point in living forever, I mean what point COULD THERE POSSIBLY BE for living forever?

But since you are a firm believer in this “certainty”, at least for you anyway, maybe you can clue me in on the nature of such livelihood...I mean, how will you be occupying your (Time?) in Eternity...? There will no longer be any darkness, right...? No males or females, you’ll be like the angels, right...?

No work to do, I imagine...so no need to rest from your labours...
No pain, tears, or sickness...no funerals since Death has been vanquished...

No births either, I suppose, without males or females, that is...

So you are going to spend all Eternity flying around as a angel working on God’s next condo...? Please explain the appeal of why on earth I would want to be in this so called “paradise of Edenic glory”....? What will God have me doing next?

As I said in the 7-part summary that provides an overview of the biblical story, it was always God's intention to dwell with his imagers for all eternity. Neither The Fall of the angels or mankind ever changed God's objective. As God's will in heaven is done, so it will be on earth.

And there's nothing impossible with God. There's nothing, that is consistent with his holy nature, he cannot do. The ultimate purpose for God taking on human flesh was to defeat death! He did that when he raised Jesus from the dead and proved to the world he is more powerful than death.

I, for one, am looking forward to the glorious day when I will be with my Creator and Redeemer for all eternity -- to enjoy him forever and ever. Scripture tells us that has not entered into the mind of man what God has prepared for those who love him.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Is there no expiration date on these biblical prophecies? Must we wait for all eternity before we store them in the "fabrication" file...where they belong?

Okay...so God is a liar because you have put an expiration date on prophecies?
Such arrogance! Instead of being thankful that Jesus didn't return yesterday to judge the living and the dead, at which time you would have been cast into the Lake of Fire, and being thankful that he has given you another day to come to your senses and repent of your sins, you blaspheme the Most High God by calling him liar.

And what about all the prophecies that have been fulfilled? Those aren't enough for you to believe either, are they?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Just give me evidence.

And you're not will to learn, no matter what.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-hKBXE9qOM

You bear witness to the truth of scripture because you will not even follow the basic biblical instructions for approaching God. You refuse to believe the first thing in scripture because you cannot! And you are very content with this.

So, behold, everyone! How many of you have complained and whined about how unjust and unfair it is for God to condemn unrepentant people to eternal punishment for theirs, most especially those who have never heard the gospel. Has it ever occurred to you that such people's hearts are just as hard as Actor's -- who has heard the gospel!? Actor is very content to let the chips the fall where they may when he dies. So, tell me: How is God unjust to give Actor the desires of his heart?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

At least you can eternally thank god for no hell and brimstone. Box will probably be running around reminding everyone, "see you got here. I won the argument" patting himself on the back. An ego that will never quit.

How many will want to remain?

You're the one who has done a total do-over of what scripture teaches so that your ears can be tickled, but I'm the one with an ego!?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You're the one who has done a total do-over of what scripture teaches so that your ears can be tickled, but I'm the one with an ego!?

We disagree on what god is, and what religion is, and how we may know more. I never threathened you with "eternal damnation" as a means of changing your opinion.

Such threats smack of immense egoism, pride and an absolute closed mind. Worse, you are not aware of any of this. Honest self knowledge is an important start.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

We disagree on what god is, and what religion is, and how we may know more. I never threathened you with "eternal damnation" as a means of changing your opinion.

Of course, you "never threatened". Your modus operandi has always been to apply your presuppositional filters a priori to scripture to get your desired message from it. Hiesler shared this insight about people who operate as you do:

Filters are used to eliminate things in order to achieve a desired result. When we use them in cooking, the unwanted elements are dredged, strained and discarded. When used in our cars, they prevent particles from interfering with performance. When used in email, we weed out what (or whom) we don't want to read. What's left is what we use -- what contributes to our meal, our engine or our sanity.

Such threats smack of immense egoism, pride and an absolute closed mind. Worse, you are not aware of any of this. Honest self knowledge is an important start.

So, if someone shouts "fire" in a crowded theater, and there's a real fire, that person's ego is the motive? Plus I'm not one threatening anyone. I'm just the messenger, not the source of scripture. Christians evangelize out of joyful obedience to the second greatest commandment, which is: "Love your neighbor, as you love yourself".

It is your ego that insists on using filters for virtually every passage in scripture to get to your desired result -- all because your ego will not allow you to process God's truth.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by boxcar

As I said in the 7-part summary that provides an overview of the biblical story, it was always God's intention to dwell with his imagers for all eternity. Neither The Fall of the angels or mankind ever changed God's objective. As God's will in heaven is done, so it will be on earth.

And there's nothing impossible with God. There's nothing, that is consistent with his holy nature, he cannot do. The ultimate purpose for God taking on human flesh was to defeat death! He did that when he raised Jesus from the dead and proved to the world he is more powerful than death.

I, for one, am looking forward to the glorious day when I will be with my Creator and Redeemer for all eternity -- to enjoy him forever and ever. Scripture tells us that has not entered into the mind of man what God has prepared for those who love him.

1. Evidence all around us clearly demonstrates that death is an integral part of the larger biotic cycle for all life forms currently under observation. Death in no way was defeated by the so-called resurrection of Jesus Christ.
2. Many religions prior to Christianity allude to dying and yet-returning beings. Reincarnation is a popular belief also. My own mother believed that she was the reincarnation of the Egyptian Nefertiti. Belief and faith do not necessarily make things so, Ipso-facto.
3. We instinctively perceive that life is precious and the thought of not being alive someday can be frightful...and so, many of us invent schemes or abide in consoling doctrines that serve to allay the fear of death. An ancient quote read “the fear of death is the birthplace of the gods”.
4. Overcoming the fear of non-existence is a challenge for many of us. Understanding that it is both natural and inevitable to die does not undo its sting...so I would be interested in hearing from all of you how you personally cope with this great challenge...

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Of course, you "never threatened". Your modus operandi has always been to apply your presuppositional filters a priori to scripture to get your desired message from it. Hiesler shared this insight about people who operate as you do:

Filters are used to eliminate things in order to achieve a desired result. When we use them in cooking, the unwanted elements are dredged, strained and discarded. When used in our cars, they prevent particles from interfering with performance. When used in email, we weed out what (or whom) we don't want to read. What's left is what we use -- what contributes to our meal, our engine or our sanity.

So, if someone shouts "fire" in a crowded theater, and there's a real fire, that person's ego is the motive? Plus I'm not one threatening anyone. I'm just the messenger, not the source of scripture. Christians evangelize out of joyful obedience to the second greatest commandment, which is: "Love your neighbor, as you love yourself".

It is your ego that insists on using filters for virtually every passage in scripture to get to your desired result -- all because your ego will not allow you to process God's truth.

There you go again. with your fire (and brimstone). Maybe your "perceptions" are not all as perfect and cracked up as all you claim them to be. When we argue I aim to make my case, as you should yours. That is my only "modus operandi".

You however throw in lots of fear, lasting for ever and ever.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

1. Evidence all around us clearly demonstrates that death is an integral part of the larger biotic cycle for all life forms currently under observation. Death in no way was defeated by the so-called resurrection of Jesus Christ.
2. Many religions prior to Christianity allude to dying and yet-returning beings. Reincarnation is a popular belief also. My own mother believed that she was the reincarnation of the Egyptian Nefertiti. Belief and faith do not necessarily make things so, Ipso-facto.
3. We instinctively perceive that life is precious and the thought of not being alive someday can be frightful...and so, many of us invent schemes or abide in consoling doctrines that serve to allay the fear of death. An ancient quote read “the fear of death is the birthplace of the gods”.
4. Overcoming the fear of non-existence is a challenge for many of us. Understanding that it is both natural and inevitable to die does not undo its sting...so I would be interested in hearing from all of you how you personally cope with this great challenge...

Death is as natural to unbelievers as breathing air. But death is not natural to God because his very essence is life (pure existence). Even Jesus said that he is "the Life". To God's mind, death is as much his enemy as the lord of death (the devil) is.

1 Cor 15:26
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
NASB

If this life is all there is, then our existence has no more meaning than any other life form on this planet. We live. We die. We are simply born to reach the end of our life. What we do in between is all vanity. Useless. Meaningless in the grand scheme of the universe.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by boxcar

If this life is all there is, then our existence has no more meaning than any other life form on this planet. We live. We die. We are simply born to reach the end of our life. What we do in between is all vanity. Useless. Meaningless in the grand scheme of the universe.

I once dwelt in the so-called “meaning of life Problem” Existentialists are fond of abiding in the above conundrum as well.
But it is a blind alley and I no longer go down that one....But this type of thinking seems to serve as a negative foil for many convinced Idealists such as yourself...an example also of your either/ or, black/ white thinking patterns, and an obstacle to intellectual progress.

In reality, meaning is not required...it is enough to live, and then to die...to take our place in lifes’ great Chain of being...and it is not vanity to live without meaning either...it is a delusion to believe we require “meaning” in order to live...we don’t, and life is just as wonderful without it.

But it is apparent there ought to be more balance in our relations with the other beings in lifes’ great Chain of being...

...we ask (rather demand) that our fellow non-human creatures (and sometimes our fellow human creatures as in the case of wars) to lay down THEIR LIVES all the time so that WE MAY EAT and sustain our own lives.

Rarely, is thought given to the fairness of such a lopsided arrangement (but we see the negative effects of this imbalance, through overpopulation, currently wreaking havoc on the biosphere).

[Light]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

4. Overcoming the fear of non-existence is a challenge for many of us. Understanding that it is both natural and inevitable to die does not undo its sting...so I would be interested in hearing from all of you how you personally cope with this great challenge...

I am not afraid to die. It is my strong suspicion that we are more unhappy on Earth rather than in the afterlife. That in the afterlife is everything we want on Earth and do not receive and that is Divine Love, within and without. I base this belief on NDE's. None of those people with NDE's want to come back to Earth because the contrast between the two is Pain on Earth and Peace and Love in the afterlife. Some are actually very angry that they were sent back. But the wisdom of the spiritual guides in the afterlife is clear to those people who were forced back as time goes on. That we don't own this life. It is a gift and an opportunity to learn and grow spiritually in a physical environment. So when you die, you have nothing to lose because you had nothing when you came here.

Bear in mind, I am not talking about Boxcar's version of the afterlife. His version is largely nonexistent because it is all Ego which is an illusion. You cannot have Ego and God occupying the same space and time.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

I once dwelt in the so-called “meaning of life Problem” Existentialists are fond of abiding in the above conundrum as well.
But it is a blind alley and I no longer go down that one....But this type of thinking seems to serve as a negative foil for many convinced Idealists such as yourself...an example also of your either/ or, black/ white thinking patterns, and an obstacle to intellectual progress.

In reality, meaning is not required...it is enough to live, and then to die...to take our place in lifes’ great Chain of being...and it is not vanity to live without meaning either...it is a delusion to believe we require “meaning” in order to live...we don’t, and life is just as wonderful without it.

But it is apparent there ought to be more balance in our relations with the other beings in lifes’ great Chain of being...

...we ask (rather demand) that our fellow non-human creatures (and sometimes our fellow human creatures as in the case of wars) to lay down THEIR LIVES all the time so that WE MAY EAT and sustain our own lives.

Rarely, is thought given to the fairness of such a lopsided arrangement (but we see the negative effects of this imbalance, through overpopulation, currently wreaking havoc on the biosphere).

There seems to be a cognitive disconnect with your "life doesn't have to have meaning" (I suppose on the grand scale?); yet, at the same time that philosophy militates violently against how most of us actually live our lives -- as though the things we think, say and do actually have meaning and purpose. Most of us tend to think that our lives, as small and insignificant they are in his huge universe, actually matter for something. What accounts for this cognitive dissonance between your philosophy and life as we all know it to be? Do you or any other unbeliever have an answer for this? (Rhetorical question, since I know unbelievers don't.) But scripture gives the answer.

Eccl 3:11
11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
NASB

Deep down, each of us knows that this life isn't all there is. And this is why, deep down, each of us hates death. While death appears to be the natural course of all life, it's really an aberration. Death is a disorder of God's intended order -- which is life eternal.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Bear in mind, I am not talking about Boxcar's version of the afterlife. His version is largely nonexistent because it is all Ego which is an illusion. You cannot have Ego and God occupying the same space and time.

I think most of us understand that. Your version is a product of your fantasies.

You do not differ materially from Hcap in terms of your respective egos. In both your cases, your egos prevent you from believing God.

"Without [real, true, genuine] faith, it's impossible to please God."

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by boxcar

There seems to be a cognitive disconnect with your "life doesn't have to have meaning" (I suppose on the grand scale?); yet, at the same time that philosophy militates violently against how most of us actually live our lives -- as though the things we think, say and do actually have meaning and purpose. Most of us tend to think that our lives, as small and insignificant they are in his huge universe, actually matter for something. What accounts for this cognitive dissonance between your philosophy and life as we all know it to be? Do you or any other unbeliever have an answer for this? (Rhetorical question, since I know unbelievers don't.) But scripture gives the answer.

Eccl 3:11
11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
NASB

Deep down, each of us knows that this life isn't all there is. And this is why, deep down, each of us hates death. While death appears to be the natural course of all life, it's really an aberration. Death is a disorder of God's intended order -- which is life eternal.

Doth the songbird need a reason to lite the branch and sing...?

Or the worm, meaning, to meander the moist milieu...?

What meant “yon albacore to fang the flying fish”...?

Is the “cognitive dissonance” there with it as well...?

If there, indeed be meaning in this world, the stomach be the cradle, where will is oozed, to fund vast appetite...

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

Doth the songbird need a reason to lite the branch and sing...?

Or the worm, meaning, to meander the moist milieu...?

What meant “yon albacore to fang the flying fish”...?

Is the “cognitive dissonance” there with it as well...?

If there, indeed be meaning in this world, the stomach be the cradle, where will is oozed, to fund vast appetite...

It really is burdensome to be a rational being, isn't it? Fortunately, for the above, they will never have to concern themselves with weighty questions of life. Meanwhile, most of us go on living life as though it has purpose and meaning while making our pilgrimage to the grave, never attaining to the true knowledge of what the reason for our existence was.