Bowling alleys and race tracks

[king kong]

No info where the tickets where sold...

[Candybag]

Interesting theory: Bowling Alone.

I remember kids bowling out of their junior league due to a conflicting other sport's engagement. We never had bowling out before. The kids sports, other than bowling, are still growing in my home town, even with moms going to work, a reasoning used in Bowling Alone as a reason for social decline.

Our junior bowling league are basically non existent.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

For the "least sophisticated" horseplayer, this game is very unforgiving. It's easily the costliest gambling game ever invented. No way can such a player survive in this game for any meaningful length of time. The only reason these types of players existed in the first place was because horse racing held a legal gambling monopoly back then. Now these players would be way better off financially if they played slots or roulette.

These players didn't quit the game because the OTBs closed down...the OTBs closed down because these players quit going after they went broke. I don't know what happened in NYC...but in Chicago the still existing OTBs are ghost towns, and so are the racebook sections of the Las Vegas sportsbooks. Let's face it, from a financial standpoint, this game has become totally unappealing, for the small bettor and the big bettor alike.

1. The people I am talking about are not casual handicappers that may be price sensitive. If they were price sensitive they wouldn't still be throwing away billions of dollars on scratch offs and lotto.

2. No doubt some people quit the game for a variety of reason. The NYC OTB's closed down because the unions negotiated extremely generous pay, retirement and overtime packages. The company did corrupt deals with branch rents and only God knows how incompetently things were run inside headquarters. But another reason was the internet and phone betting made it somewhat obsolete for some customers. I believe OTB owed NYRA millions when it finally closed down.

However, that said, at the time it closed down, the entire customer base did not switch over to NYRA phone accounts. They captured a good chunk, but many people simply dropped out or went back to their local bookie. IMO, the industry should be trying to recapture that segment of the market also. Inefficiencies in the pools arise from the mistakes of the beginners and very casual players.

[Candybag]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

Why are you going to racetracks and trying to help the sport out if it is do boring?

To bring people back to the track. Entertain people and they will come. The race is not boring. It is the other 23 minutes.

[classhandicapper]

The main point I am making here is that it will require different incentives to attract different segments of the population. IMO the industry should be trying to capture ALL segments. In the days when OTB handled a lot of money there were a lot of people betting numbers, jockeys, trainers, horse's names, birthdays, public handicapper picks no matter the price, and all sorts of crazy things but in much larger amounts. That created opportunities in the same way lowering the take would.

[Candybag]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

The main point I am making here is that it will require different incentives to attract different segments of the population. IMO the industry should be trying to capture ALL segments. In the days when OTB handled a lot of money there were a lot of people betting numbers, jockeys, trainers, horse's names, birthdays, public handicapper picks no matter the price, and all sorts of crazy things but in much larger amounts. That created opportunities in the same way lowering the take would.

Agree 100%. 40% of football fans are women. At the track, lucky to see 5% of the attendance are women.

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by Candybag

To bring people back to the track. Entertain people and they will come. The race is not boring. It is the other 23 minutes.

How do you determine who to bet? You have to handicap. You have to analyze the betting. Some analyze how the horses look on the track and how they warm up. Some might take on some replays during that time. Some might listen to the analysis of the talking heads and get presented with additional information to factor into their betting strategy. Then they have to develop a logical betting strategy to try to overcome a ridiculous takeout. There is a lot to unpack. For those that prefer bet, action……….there are other tracks they can play during the same period.

This game fails one reason only, it is priced too high. The masses are losing 27 to 28 percent in just about every pool and the heavy hitter you are meeting with (whoever he/she may be) knows this. They have the data. If they are going to continue on as is they may as well promote the 1.8 million even if the caw scooped the pool (obviously I have no idea), because this game has no selling point. That why all the money gravitates to the pick 5 and carryover pools. What is the chance that somebody new to the game is going to develop the skill level needed to not lose over 20 percent of every dollar bet. Any rational person will realize the game is too tough to bet before they even learn it. When you turn it into chasing a lifetime score slbeit a mandatory payout on six wide open large fields, well at least for that betting event you have a rational reason to take a shot. I might get lucky and if I do I will most likely be very well rewarded..

[ScottJ]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

For the "least sophisticated" horseplayer, this game is very unforgiving. It's easily the costliest gambling game ever invented. No way can such a player survive in this game for any meaningful length of time. The only reason these types of players existed in the first place was because horse racing held a legal gambling monopoly back then. Now these players would be way better off financially if they played slots or roulette.

First, let's define "least sophisticated". These are not "dumb gamblers" but instead are individuals who might frequent a track for a boutique meeting or make a couple of bets per year on a big race. They have little experience and our collective arrogance relishes the fact that the game is difficult to learn. Hell, chess is hard when played against Magnus Carlsen but easy when played against a group of elementary school students.

For these least sophisticated folks, the game is not costly based on takeout since they are typically making just a few casual bets.

One of the most interesting introductory bets remains the show wager and Oaklawn has one of the most interesting promotions with their on-track show ticket bonus.

So, why rekindle interest in show wagering when so many want to eliminate it due to small pools and lack of interest as a product? Show wagering creates an opportunity to cash a ticket more often and feel the "success" of being right. Think about blackjack - you "win" single hands although you might not have a winning session. It gives the new gambler the sense that they have a fighting chance.

We should absolutely NOT ask new players to participate in multi-leg horizontals or complex verticals despite the appeal of a big score. The time between wins is simply too long. For those that have a bigger bankroll and a longer time horizon to score, these bets are fine, however not for the occasional player.

Fifty years back when I placed my first show bet on-track at Aqueduct, I was convinced that "entries" and "fields" were the biggest freebies given to the public. That's where you start and it is a long road getting from there to $100 bet on a program and investing in Pick-X wagers.

[racenomics]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

they may as well promote the 1.8 million even if the caw scooped the pool (obviously I have no idea),

Guy who hit it played a $354 ticket and posted it on twitter before he hit.

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by racenomics

Guy who hit it played a $354 ticket and posted it on twitter before he hit.

Well there is your promotion of a lifetime. Bingo. Let's see if the "smart people" run with it.

[ScottJ]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

I tell you what, you want small bettors back in the game. Guess what I am not even going to talk takeout for a change. What happened today. A 20 cent pick 6 ticket at Gulfstream payed 1.8 million. A $1 pick 5 ticket on the coast to coast pick 5 payed 100k a 50 cent pick 5 at Gulfstream payed $330,000. Now given everyone in this country is able to bet these pools it seems to me that getting a press release to every news station in America might be a good idea.

Jackpot wagers are an absolute scourge for the industry. Money is removed from the game (rather than churning) until the jackpot is paid usually to a very few thereby creating further churn impacts.

Encouraging new players to become fish for the larger syndicates is exactly opposite to building communities of small bettors. Jackpots underscore the "you can never win that game, it's fixed" perspective of new players.

Press releases regarding these pools and prices do absolutely nothing positive to create new players, grow the wagering handle, or improve the reputation of the game.

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

Jackpot wagers are an absolute scourge for the industry. Money is removed from the game (rather than churning) until the jackpot is paid usually to a very few thereby creating further churn impacts.

Encouraging new players to become fish for the larger syndicates is exactly opposite to building communities of small bettors. Jackpots underscore the "you can never win that game, it's fixed" perspective of new players.

Press releases regarding these pools and prices do absolutely nothing positive to create new players, grow the wagering handle, or improve the reputation of the game.

Totally agree. While the lottery overall is a scam, people seem to like the idea of playing random numbers (or their favorite numbers) and hitting a massive payoff. That is NOT how you win these jackpot wagers, and anyone trying to do so is going to either be bored or broke.

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

Jackpot wagers are an absolute scourge for the industry. Money is removed from the game (rather than churning) until the jackpot is paid usually to a very few thereby creating further churn impacts.

Encouraging new players to become fish for the larger syndicates is exactly opposite to building communities of small bettors. Jackpots underscore the "you can never win that game, it's fixed" perspective of new players.

Press releases regarding these pools and prices do absolutely nothing positive to create new players, grow the wagering handle, or improve the reputation of the game.

Of course I agree with you but the powers that be have no desire to build communities of small bettors. You either play ball (betting maybe a million a year, not sure what it is currently) or you get gouged (there are some exceptions for those who live in the right states).

Ch want new suckers in the game. Maybe a few of the people that pick up the jackpot chase, might decide to bet the regular races now and again. But at least you are getting the word out that horse racing is around and that for a reasonable amount of money, you can have a life changing score. Not my ideal solution, but they have been ignoring my ideal situation for years, so I am not holding my breath waiting for them to act properly now.

Eliminating jackpot bets isn't saving this sport. Andy Beyer might think it is the recipe, but it is not. Not promoting when someone who isn't caw hits for 1.8 million dollars on a fairly small ticket is ridiculous. This is the ONLY thing the sports offers the layman in its current state. A tiny chance for the score. Not my fault racing chose the road they did and continue down it until they drive off the cliff.

[elhelmete]

Originally Posted by Candybag

Agree 100%. 40% of football fans are women. At the track, lucky to see 5% of the attendance are women.

Wait is this about Medicaid reform or meeting hotties?

farcical.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

1. The people I am talking about are not casual handicappers that may be price sensitive. If they were price sensitive they wouldn't still be throwing away billions of dollars on scratch offs and lotto.

2. No doubt some people quit the game for a variety of reason. The NYC OTB's closed down because the unions negotiated extremely generous pay, retirement and overtime packages. The company did corrupt deals with branch rents and only God knows how incompetently things were run inside headquarters. But another reason was the internet and phone betting made it somewhat obsolete for some customers. I believe OTB owed NYRA millions when it finally closed down.

However, that said, at the time it closed down, the entire customer base did not switch over to NYRA phone accounts. They captured a good chunk, but many people simply dropped out or went back to their local bookie. IMO, the industry should be trying to recapture that segment of the market also. Inefficiencies in the pools arise from the mistakes of the beginners and very casual players.

1. I don't think that there are many horseplayers out there who have quit the horses so they can play scratch off lottery tickets. And the lotto is an entirely different ballgame. I too play the lotto once in a long while, whenever I have a peculiar dream.

2. I don't know when the last time was that you entered an actual OTB. I go to those places once in a while, and they are virtual ghost towns. The few people who are there are just seeking shelter from the cold. And most of the OTBs have closed down altogether. When people play a gambling game and then they stop, they stop for some good reason... and you aren't going to succeed in bringing them back by way of some clever marketing maneuver. The casual horseplayer has been abandoning this game in droves...and the horse racing industry has never seemed particularly bothered by this development. All they have done is cut a deal with the computer groups, so the mega-betting computer guys can pick up the slack. No concern at all has been given for the plight of the "average" horseplayer. And you now think that this industry will finally make an effort to "recapture that segment of the market"?