Mine That Bird

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Such a feat? Look no further than the last 10 or so Arc de Triomphes. Of course many of those actually won the race twice...
.

^^^^
it's embarassing to have to point this out.


Meanwhile, there are provincials who think the Woodward is some big, famous "world race."

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by clicknow

^^^^
it's embarassing to have to point this out.


Meanwhile, there are provincials who think the Woodward is some big, famous "world race."

European turf racing is a lot different than American dirt and synthetic racing.

[thaskalos]

How many fillies or mares have even RUN in the BC Classic, since its inception?

[dilanesp]

I should mention, I do wish we would see more fillies and mares run against colts. Pletcher had to be dragged kicking and screaming to run Rags to Riches in the Belmont, and she beat Curlin. American trainers are too timid.

When it is tried with a top filly or mare, it often works out well, most recently with Beholder.

[Racetrack Playa]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

How many fillies or mares have even RUN in the BC Classic, since its inception?

2011 HOTY Havre De Grace ran 4th , she did beat the boys in the Woodward.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Racetrack Playa

2011 HOTY Havre De Grace ran 4th , she did beat the boys in the Woodward.

Yep. And that's a good indicator of how much deeper and tougher a BC Classic is than the Woodward.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

How many fillies or mares have even RUN in the BC Classic, since its inception?

5 horses: Triptych (6th, 1986), Jolypha (3rd, 1992), Azeri (5th, 2004), Zenyatta (1st, 2009; 2nd, 2010), and Havre de Grace (4th, 2011)

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

5 horses: Triptych (6th, 1986), Jolypha (3rd, 1992), Azeri (5th, 2004), Zenyatta (1st, 2009; 2nd, 2010), and Havre de Grace (4th, 2011)

1/6, about 18%. A solid win percentage, more should try.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

1/6, about 18%. A solid win percentage, more should try.

Ladies Secret, Beholder, Royal Delta, Elate, and Found were mentioned for or pre-entered in the Classic but bowed out for one reason or another.

[depalma113]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

But the Woodward she won was a BC prep, and many of the good older horses were running in other BC preps.

Who were these good older horses?

Awesome Gem?
Colonel John?
Einstein?
Gio Ponti?
Richard's Kid?

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by depalma113

Who were these good older horses?

Awesome Gem?
Colonel John?
Einstein?
Gio Ponti?
Richard's Kid?

You don't think a race with those horses wouldn't be stronger than the Woodward?

The BC Classic is the most difficult race in America to win, because it is open and draws everyone good. The Woodward doesn't.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

You don't think a race with those horses wouldn't be stronger than the Woodward?

The relative strengths of the so-called BC 'preps' and even the BC Classic itself were practically irrelevant during the 2009 season. The older horse division was a joke for the entire year.

It's quite telling that a horse that failed to win a race on synthetic and failed to even start on the dirt was named champion older horse (Gio Ponti).

If you need more evidence note that the Woodward (Rachel Alexandra), Jockey Club Gold Cup (Summer Bird-Quality 1st, 2nd), Goodwood (Gitano Hernando), and Clark Handicap (Blame) were all won by 3yos.

The best older horse performance among males that year was probably Rail Trip in the Hollywood Gold Cup (111 BSF) but he was toast before the BC.

The important point of Rachel Alexandra winning the Woodward from a historical perspective is that a 3yo filly won one of the most important dirt races in the US for older horses. The odds of that happening anytime soon is far less likely than a dominant older mare winning an important dirt race open to all (in fact the latter has already happened multiple times post-Zenyatta with Beholder and Havre de Grace).

[thaskalos]

I can't quite understand the argument here. Are we debating whether or not Zenyatta ranks higher on the historical "totem pole" than Rachel Alexandra?

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

The relative strengths of the so-called BC 'preps' and even the BC Classic itself were practically irrelevant during the 2009 season. The older horse division was a joke for the entire year.

It's quite telling that a horse that failed to win a race on synthetic and failed to even start on the dirt was named champion older horse (Gio Ponti).

If you need more evidence note that the Woodward (Rachel Alexandra), Jockey Club Gold Cup (Summer Bird-Quality 1st, 2nd), Goodwood (Gitano Hernando), and Clark Handicap (Blame) were all won by 3yos.

The best older horse performance among males that year was probably Rail Trip in the Hollywood Gold Cup (111 BSF) but he was toast before the BC.

The important point of Rachel Alexandra winning the Woodward from a historical perspective is that a 3yo filly won one of the most important dirt races in the US for older horses. The odds of that happening anytime soon is far less likely than a dominant older mare winning an important dirt race open to all (in fact the latter has already happened multiple times post-Zenyatta with Beholder and Havre de Grace).

The BC Classic is different from any other "important dirt race open to all", and Havre de Grace being able to kick butt in the Woodward but only finishing 4th in the BCC is proof of that.

Rachel Alexandra beat Macho Again in a photo in the Woodward. He was no better than the 2009 horses you mentioned, so a 3 year old filly beating him by a head is meaningless.

You are bowled over by the history of the Woodward, but that's meaningless. It's not that big a deal anymore.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

The best older horse performance among males that year was probably Rail Trip in the Hollywood Gold Cup (111 BSF) but he was toast before the BC.

Funny you mention Rail Trip. The Zenyatta connections wanted no part of facing him when he was going well.